China News
It looks like China is going to do away with the law that says women cannot know the sex of their baby before it is born.
Specifically, they are doing away with the law that tried to keep sex-selective abortions from happening, but the side effect will be that it will finally be okay for families to find out ahead of time whether they are having a boy or a girl.
You can read the story here: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-06/26/content_625496.htm
If China is trying to drastically minimize the number of abandonments, this would seem to be one way to go about that.
It won’t do anything for the imbalance of males to females though.
This does not need to be a discussion about the morality of abortion.
June 26th, 2006 at 7:41 am
I suppose it’s one way for the powers-that-be to know who’s doing (or should that be “having”?) what. The mother will know what gender she’s expecting but so, presumably, will the authorities. I’d guess people will be far less likely to take drastic measures if they know their name is on a file somewhere as the expectant parent of a baby girl. This could slightly redress the imbalance. Maybe.
I’d love to think this was a positive move but I think I’m just too cynical. It just smacks of more state control to me.
June 26th, 2006 at 8:15 am
Does the Chinese government make it very difficult for a woman to get an abortion? Just wondering if they will take this legal punishment away, but if it is still very hard for a woman to make the choice because of government interference. I don’t know much about the Chinese government view on this.
June 26th, 2006 at 8:16 am
I recall a 60 Minutes story from a couple of months ago that metnioned this. Even though it was illegal, there was a thriving black market program for sonograms. So, I see this announcement as a recogniation of a problem and legalising it, so the money will go to the government instead of the criminals.
June 26th, 2006 at 8:46 am
It is my understanding that itis not illegal to terminate a pregnancy, it was illegal to find out the sex of the child. When we began this process I checked (I can’t remember where I found the stats on this) into the percentage of abortions in China. In the more populated cities it was pretty significant.
June 26th, 2006 at 9:10 am
I was under the impression that it was illegal:to have more than one child (with some exceptions…), to know the gender of an unborn child, for the doctor/nurse to divulge the gender of that child, to have an abortion, to abandon a child, to sell your child, etc.
I’m thinking some of this has changed…more so concerning the ‘One Child Policy’, but I haven’t seen any real recent info/news about the others. Not long ago though there was an article describing how the gov’t had made the penalties harsher for doctors/nurses who were found to have told a mother the gender of her unborn child. Apparently this is a interesting ‘change of heart’ in this regards. Hmmmmm.
June 26th, 2006 at 9:21 am
I believe I read that the one child policy is now basically a two child policy, since if both parents are only children, they are allowed a second birth. Also the one child policy is enforced more in the cities than in the country.
I’m fairly sure that abortion is not illegal in China, in fact, I believe it is encouraged in the case of an overquota birth.
June 26th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Not only is abortion legal in China, but for the past 25 years, hundreds of thousands of women have had state-sanctioned forced abortions inflicted upon them. These forced abortions are perpetrated upon women at virtually any and all stages of pregancy. Close to term babies are killed or simply tossed away and left to die.
There are many sources out there which speak to this issue, but one invaluable book for your home library - a book which will shed light on the entire “one-child” policy, is entitled:
“A Mother’s Ordeal - One Woman’s Fight Against China’s One-Child Policy”, written by Steven W. Mosher.
The ISBN is 0-06-097614-4
The woman in the story was an state sanctioned abortionist - who forcefully coerced many women to submit to aborting their children, and performed the abortions herself.
It is the story of her change of heart…
Some day our children are going to wonder why things are as they are in China. When they are old enough to understand (mid to late teens would be my recommendation), this book, among others, will give them more clear insight into the why’s of their abandonment and subsequent adoptions.
Personally, I think adoptive parents ought to educate themselves on the history and current political climate of China. It is all well and good to celebrate Chinese New Years and eat Chinese food, but our children may one day desire to understand their adoption in a more full context.
June 26th, 2006 at 9:49 am
I think that abortion is legal and used quite often is cases of more children than the quota. I think that it is only illegal to know the sex of the baby because of the fear that more girls will be aborted and the gender gap will continue to grow. I think now they are at a point where the government of China is feeling international adoption more of a shame to them than the abortions. Then the girls are unseen to the world. Girls are aborted now in a disproportionate number because they do find out the sex sometimes even though it is illegal. Now that they can know the sex it will go one of two ways, either there will be more abortions of girls and the government will look the other way to meet the ends they need or they will better keep track of who is having a girl and make sure they do not have an abortion or punish them if they do. It is all about the goal of the government, to have more girls in the society to balance the gender gap or to reduce ia. Which is the case is up for debate. At the same time that this rule is changing there is also a massive campaign in China about girls being just as good as boys and many people of the younger generation want girls too. It is the older generation putting pressure on the childbearing couples to have boys. I know this is a generalization but overall true. We have a friend to is Chinese who has family there and this is what she explained to me about the current feeling. I think as China continues to go through this accelerated period of growth we are going to see many changes in the culture and rules.
I do believe that we will all get our babies but that things are changing fast in China. I think that the amount of children for both nsn and sn will decrease over time to a point where there are much less ia than there has been. I work with a woman who adopted 14 years ago. She was one of the first to do ia from China. She said that the growth in those years has been unbelievable and that the growth the last 5 years has been even more so. If you look at the industrialized countries of the world, there are fewer babies to be adopted. We waited 4 years in the USA for a baby and never completed an adoption, so we turned to China. If you look what countries do the receiving of adopted children and what countries are adopting their children out you can make two fairly good lists of countries that have resources and those that do not. As China grows they have to change to meet the times as does any society.
June 26th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Do you remember that song ….things that make you go hmmm? Well, this is definetly one of those things…Things that make you go hmmm..hmmm…hmmmmm……….
June 26th, 2006 at 10:13 am
DebbieY: Thanks for an excellent post. I’m calling my husband (who works at a bookstore) and asking him to order the book you mentioned right away.
I also read a horrifying article in a recent Time or Newsweek (or something along those lines — can’t remember which — I’ve got it at home…) about these forced abortions. What a nightmare for these poor women. It occurs mainly in rural areas, usually due to a local government official who is trying to keep his population “numbers” down so that he will be rewarded or promoted. They literally drag these women out of their homes …
June 26th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Interesting link on subject
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/08/05/wchin05.xml
June 26th, 2006 at 10:29 am
I thought everyone was more familiar with the family planning laws in China.
Abortion, like other family planning choices, is free in China. No charge.
In the past there were many forced abortions. Horror stories. The current law does not call for forced abortions. There are rumors of some rogue provinces where it still happens. Beijing no longer approves of this, and in the majority of the country this no longer takes place,
It is currently illegal to find out the sex of your child before it is born. Ultrasounds are only done legally when a doctor has a medical reason to need one, and if the doctor tells the family the sex of the child there are consequences for the doctor.
There is a blackmarket for ultrasounds as a result.
This new legislation would do away with the illegality of finding out the sex before the child is born. This would, theoretically, make many families choose abortion instead of having the child, abandoning her if she is a girl, and then trying again for a boy.
June 26th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Those interested in learning more about the social and political forces that impact child abandonment in China, may want to check out the following book (available on amazon.com): “Wanting a Daughter, Needing a Son” by Kay Ann Johnson. It’s basically a compilation of research papers, but very interesting and helpful in building understanding of how Chinese families have handled family planning issues in recent past.
June 26th, 2006 at 11:02 am
jasmith is right, Wanting a Daughter, Needing a Son is an excellent book.
June 26th, 2006 at 11:05 am
RQ, you are correct when you state it had been illegal to pre-screen in order to determine the sex of a child. However, I do not believe you are correct when you state “Beijing no longer approves of this and in the majority of the country this no longer takes place”.
While Beijing may not “officially” approve, their entire population policy endorses forced abortions.
Recently (about 3 or 4 months ago) a lawyer from one of the provinces (can’t remember which) travelled to Beijing in order to complain to the central government about the continuing forced abortions taking place within his province - he’d been hired by a number of families and was trying to launch a “class-action suit”. After meeting with officials - he was with friends and colleagues in downtown Beijing when he was surrounded by police and arrested. He has not been seen or heard from since.
Beijing’s policy is to limit family size - period. While they may wish to address the male-female ratio, and will implement laws to that end - it little concerns them how the former is accomplished .
LID1105 was correct. Within the provinces a quota system is still in effect. To that end, officials will do anything within their power to ensure they meet Beijing’s numbers - and that includes the practice of dragging women from their homes and forcing them to abort.
Also, recently a woman who was born in Hong Kong travelled to Mainland China. Being visibly pregnant - and without having a “permit” which allows such - the relative’s home in which she was staying was surrounded by family planning officials demanding that she come out and submit to an abortion. Claiming they had no jurisdiction over her as she was a Hong Kong resident, the expectant mother refused. This garnered huge international interest, and because of media pressure, the family planning committe chairman was rebuked. Had this woman not had international connections - there is no doubt she’d have been forced to abort her child.
This is not an isolated event. Forced abortion and sterilization is still widely implemented across China.
Beijing may “say” they don’t approve, but their policy speaks otherwise.
June 26th, 2006 at 11:17 am
I agree with DebbieY in that it is a part of the Chinese culture to make rules that “save face” or are socially apporpreate and to look the other way to get what the government really wants. They want to reduce the population and will look the other way as needed. It is also illegal to abandon a child and they “search” for 6 months for the birth parents. That is why the children can not be adopted any younger. There are rules and then there are common practices.
I too loved the book Wanting a Daughter, Needing a Son and would encourage others to read it.
Searching this morning and found this website on abortion by region in China. I wonder how it relates to where our adopted little girls come from?
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/prc/ab-prcp2.html -
June 26th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Well, to me it sounds like a bad move for China, who will have to deal with a tremendous and growing gender imbalance. It also sounds like a bad thing for IA, because the baby girls will be mostly aborted, I would think. Except special needs that aren’t ultrasound-found? Cleft-lip is identifiable on ultrasound, as are many cardiac defects. On the other hand, how available is ultrasound in the provinces? It must not be easily available in rural areas, from what I have understood of their health care services. Do you know, RQ, how available ultrasound is? I think the diminution in baby girls will depend on that.
June 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
That was my question–if there is supposedly a 25% increase in birth defects, why are they seeing such an increase when abortion is so available? Seems strange……………I believe a parent’s choice is a parent’s choice…….. but it seems aborting a child with birth defects rather than having them and abandoning them would make more sense in their culture…….I mean does having a ton of sn ia seem any more pc to the gov’t? *weird*
June 26th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Sounds like a recipe for a society filled with a lot of angry men….
China will need to balance this policy with more incentives to have and keep girls, or do away with the 1 child policy.
June 26th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
not going to say anything but, this is from the archives in the Central Gov’t site. It may indeed be simply a matter of ’saving face’…officially saying it’s not tolerated and yet it goes on and is forced. But this is what I gathered from several articles and a post/update on the Human Rights progress in China. Just so you know what ‘they’ are saying…
“The current family planning policy must be kept basically stable, a fundamental measure to cope with the fourth baby boom (in the next five years),” said Zhang Weiqing, director of the National Population and Family Planning Commission. But many challenges remain, said Zhang, as China will see its total population, working-age population and aging population all reach their peaks in the middle of this century.The rising male-to-female ratio and the world’s largest migrating population have posed serious questions to the government’s management capacity and social stability.To meet these challenges, China has to improve its population quality, first by setting up a national birth defect intervention and monitoring network to ensure that every family can give birth to healthy kids.The government should lead society in creating a social atmosphere of “women are equal to men”, crack down on illegal pre-natal gender selection, abortion based on sex preference and deserting baby girls, he said.
To ensure safe baby delivery for migrant mothers, Guangzhou has launched a crackdown on underground or illegal clinics, especially those that offer delivery or abortion services, according to Xie Hongxin, deputy director of the Guangzhou Municipal Bureau of Population and Family Planning.
China’s Progress in Human Rights in 2004 (2005)
The government actively provides women with reproduction health services and has introduced informed choice in contraception and birth control to protect women’s rights to reproduction health, information and choice. In 2004, the government launched “World AIDS Day” activities which featured the theme “Show Concern for Women, Say No to AIDS” to provide face-to-face dissemination and education for 34.83 percent of China’s female population. Meanwhile, the government severely punishes such unlawful acts as unnecessary medical tests on the sex of fetuses, artificial abortion because of the sex of a fetus, and drowning or abandoning girl babies. The experimental campaign of “Caring for Girls” was launched in 11 counties in 11 provinces with excessively high male sex ratios in the newly born population, and it was expanded to 24 counties in 24 provinces the same year. Moreover, the governments of the provinces, autonomous regions and municipalities directly under the central government launched the experimental campaign on their own initiative in 638 places at or above the county level. As a result, all the areas with excessively high male sex ratios among the newly born population are now covered by the campaign, and the rights and interests of women and girls are truly protected.
The internationally recognized normal ratio is 103-107 of one sex against 100 of the other. But in China, for every 100 new born baby girls, there were 109 baby boys in 1982, and 111 in 1990. Fetus gender identification and non-medical abortion, which continue despite being illegal, are blamed for the unbalanced gender figures.A draft of a revision to the Criminal Law, which was discussed by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress late last year and this April, proposes that those who help identify the gender of a foetus for non-medical purposes face criminal charges.
June 26th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
“China has to improve its population quality, first by setting up a national birth defect intervention and monitoring network to ensure that every family can give birth to healthy kids”.
….CHILLING…not surprising…but CHILLING, nonetheless.
June 26th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
i agree Debbie…
it was really interesting reading some of those things…some come off as typical gov’t propaganda…some seem normal..but yeah that statement kind of stood out to me as well.
June 26th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
I am in the US and work as a spec. ed teacher for severely, multiply disabled children……..you should hear the stories I hear from immigrant parents….I really believe that most of the world things the sn children are throw aways. Sad :(
June 26th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
*thinks*
June 26th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
How disturbing this news is, as the ramifications of such gov. control are mind blowing! Another sad day for China’s children. Whether or not I feel abortion is right or wrong, messing with gender selection will only compound their already alarming problem of too many male children. I am guessing that in the coming years we will be reading about forced abortions for male children and sn children…very, very disturbing!
Thankful to live in a free country!
June 26th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
I show a video in my psychology of women class called “Only Child” from PBS. It was done a while back and very hard to find (some Universities have it) (If ANYONE knows where to get it on DVD or a new copy, I would love you forever). Back to the point. It shows women being forced by their communities and factories to have abortions far along in their second pregnancies. When you can actually watch the pressure that is placed on these women- from bosses, to fellow factory workers, to the “granny” police on their streets, to family and friends, it almost feels like they are creating a climate where abortion is the norm. One woman in the video was 7 months pregnant when her commune found out. They threatened financial ruin and eviction on her and she caved and had the abortion. She had the abortion in her 8th+ month. Despite your views on abortion, one cannot argue that a baby at 8 months gestation is completely viable. It is a pretty intense film.
June 26th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
that sounds worse than any horror movie hollywood can come up with.
June 26th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
I am a Child Ambassador for World Vision (an international sponsorship and relief organization around for 53 years). We recieve very serious training for this and that includes information on birthrates and the treatment of women/children all around the world. Informal estimates say that between China and India there are nearly 100 million “lost girls” in the last couple of generations due to abortion, killing after birth and abandoned girls who don’t survive to make it to an orphanage. I could go on and on about the horrors of being born a woman in other parts of the world. My heart really breaks and that is why I volunteer with World Vision. I am going to change the life of my baby directly, but through sponsorship of girls all over the world, I can help them in an indirect way also. We have many friends and family who have now sponsored girls in China in honor of our baby because those girls are the ones left behind (much like Love without Boundries and Half the Sky). If you want more info, you can email me at pinkpunch2005 at yahoo dot com.
I wish I could say that this law changing was a good thing, but I fear that it just means more girls and more children with birth defects will be aborted. BUT it will catch up to all of these countries because you can’t make more boy babies without girls. The numbers of men of marriable age without girls to marry in the upcoming generation is HORRIFIC and I believe it will lead to crime and fighting and of course more heartache for women through kidnapping and so on.
This is something that I have tried to pay attention to and am reading the kay Johnson book right now. Our children will have questions and when they are old enough, they will want to know what happened in China.
June 26th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
RQ - I think this thread is good evidence for a link or FAQ site where we can find resources about current China policies and news. I’ve read and read, but still find I need to research more and more.
June 26th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
I’ve popped on here often…I know there’s other sites to find and go to, but I usually just start here.
http://english.gov.cn
this is the Central Government’s site. There are links to other sites from there as well.
June 27th, 2006 at 8:49 am
to “Thankful for a free country” - some US factories as late as the 1980s were forcing women to have abortions or lose their jobs, while in other states women were legally forced to continue their preganancy, even if raped and/or by incest. Since 2000, many laws and much funding in this area have changed in the direction of fewer choices for women.
Forced abortion and forced pregnancy share common ground: violent control of women’s bodies by others. Even here in our own countries, we have to constantly work to achieve and safeguard reproductive choice.
Aint’t no free lunch! (I’d insert a smiley here but don’t know how)
Yeah, that was a chilling statement —
“To meet these challenges, China has to improve its population quality, first by setting up a national birth defect intervention and monitoring network to ensure that every family can give birth to healthy kids….”
To me, that “first by…” (FIRST!) says that the birth defect issue (which has seen a massive spike due to effluent & enviro toxins, as whole swaths of the country become a dumping ground for factory effluent) is driving this change of law more than the genderissue. Perhaps the government wants people to find and terminate pregancies showing foetal abnornalities, and ”we’ll tell you your child’s gender” is either the carrot stick to do so, or will happen anyway once ultrasounds are performed, so ‘allowing’ that knowledge to be passed on is face-saving. Maybe getting people in for ultrasounds is the “birth defect intervention” plan.
Really, this may have more to do with massive spike in birth defects than any sudden change of heart on parental knowledge of gender (especially as the government has self-interest in keeping that original law *in place*). So I think there is something overriding their gender-gap concern. And my guess is it’s the huge increase in birth defects, a news story of national and international interest that in turn would give widespread public support at home for enviro movement and would put pressure for restrictive enviro laws, which the few people making tremendous amount of money off this new economy Do Not Want. Hide (abort) the birth defects, hide the problem. Perhaps that’s more important in the short term than the long-term instability of gender gap.
As for “25% increase in birth defects” number I quoted on another thread, that was only for 2001-2003, and from a conservative website (Time Asia). With China’s unfettered production/factory increase pushing into more and more communities, those numbers would have to be much larger now.
Last: how will late 05 and 06 LIDs be affected by this law? (Inapprotirate whining on my part, but still… ) When does this law come into effect? When it does, numbers of IA-available babies will … drop? will vanish? I mean, no babies abandoned for gender means almost no NSN babies. Remember when that guy in China was hinting that people should leave the program? Was this what he was talking about? Irrational fears taking over…. must…….go…to…work….
June 27th, 2006 at 9:08 am
threebluesteps-
you’ve definitely brought up some things to think about…about ‘forced’ abortions not only in China, but other parts of the world including the US, and also about a possible ‘hidden’ agenda behind this proposed change in law.
While I hope most people, including myself, feel that not everything the Central Gov’t does has some dark, evil motive behind it, it is a possibility that one could put together the scenario of “hey, come in and we’ll check out your fetus…we’ll tell you the gender, make sure it’s healthy, and so on. OH, and if there’s reasons to believe there will be complications…birth defects, then we’ll make you abort the fetus.” This actually sounds more like something Hitler would’ve done in creating his ‘perfect race’. It is possible that there could be a bit of “we must ensure the Chinese people are healthy and free of defects”. I’m not sure I totally believe that 100%.
Even so, the one thing that will not change dramatically is the need for children to be adopted. NSN and SN. Internationally and Domestically. 1.3 billion people and growing will see to that. the US has no where close to the population of China and yet still has many many children without homes, living in foster care, etc. I just think that international adoptions from China will continue for some time. It really comes down to taking care of the children…for them to find a family.
June 27th, 2006 at 9:11 am
3blue - you make some very good points. I don’t believe that any country has figured out “reproductive rights” yet, some are better than others, but in my opinion none have it quite right. But that’s a whole ‘nother blog post, probably on a different blog - LOL.
As for your reasoning about China’s reason for this, I also think there is a good chance that this is specifically to try to target birth defects. Right now ultrasounds are very very regulated, with the legal ultrasounds needing a lot of paperwork and explanations filled out by the doctor before they are used. If they want to start finding birth defects ahead of time, that will have to change.
One of the differences in culture is that in the U.S. we tend to put the rights of the individual above the good of society. In China the good of society is put above the rights (or good) of the individual. I don’t think either way is right, I actually think that there should be a middle ground there somewhere. But, my point is that they look at it from the standpoint of what is good for society, without really looking at the individuals - it’s not “cold” to them, it’s just the way their culture views things.
As for when this could effect waiting families… if the law goes into effect in, say, July, then those people who are three or four months pregnant could get an ultrasound and abort, meaning there could be less births as soon as January, and less babies available for matching as soon as soon as next July or August.
June 27th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Oh, and I want to stress that I think there will be babies abandoned even if this law goes into effect.
And, if the Chinese government has a number of babies that will be made available for international adoption in mind (and I think we all agree that they do) then this may not effect (affect?) the number of paper ready babies at all.
Or, it may. Only time will tell.
June 28th, 2006 at 6:25 am
I’m late coming back to this but can I just add, surely it’s only the ultrasound that is now going to be legal. Aborting healthy female foetuses will STILL be as illegal as it ever was. Of course it happens and will continue to happen, but it’s not as if it’s suddenly going to be acceptable or promoted.
June 28th, 2006 at 7:21 am
J - the title of the article was “Sex-selective abortions illegality ruled out”. I took that to mean that aborting to select sex will no longer be illegal. Or, to get rid of the double negative, will now be legal.