Research-China’s latest blog entry
I woke up to more than a dozen emails asking me to comment on the latest blog entry over at Research-China.
First, something that bothered me about the way he gathered information. He had his “prospective mother” tell the orphanage director that she lived in Guangzhou, but that her husband was local to the area. But then later he tells us that:
Lastly, many orphanages have restricted their domestic adoption program to families living in the orphanage’s area. When asked why families from other geographical areas of China are prohibited from adopting from their orphanage, most directors indicate that post-placement reporting is more difficult. Others indicate that given the disparity between supply and demand for healthy baby infants, it is felt that local families should be given first priority.
I think there is a good chance that many directors told her “no” because they knew that the child would be taken to Guangzhou and thus the post placement reporting would be difficult. His data is flawed by the fact that the mother told them up front that she was not local.
I am disappointed that Adoption Today magazine didn’t pick up on this obvious flaw in the data and is apparently going to run this article. It could do a great deal of damage.
And that picture? A helpless baby surrounded by darkness with a Chinese hand on her right and a Caucasian hand on her left? I think that perhaps he is sensationalizing this. I would expect that from a member of the media, but not from someone with three daughters from China.
If there are indeed families in China who can afford the fees who want to adopt then I hope that the orphanage directors are giving them first choice. I do agree that most of our girls would be better off being raised in China where they are not the minority. If there are families in China who want to adopt them, then of course they should be able to (assuming they can pass a home study and the police clearances and the medical exam, and can afford whatever fees the CCAA deems is fair). However, Brian’s articles do not convince me that tens of thousands of years of a culture that put boys first and “blood relations” as being important is suddenly going to want to adopt a bunch of girls. His data is flawed. I would love to see data that is not flawed, but I doubt the Chinese government is going to allow that.
This was not the only flaw I found in his various conclusions. He puts the graph up about the Guangzhou orphanage numbers and makes it sound like the numbers are straight from the finding ads, but then in the footnotes tells you that he had to do a lot of guesswork to get to those numbers.
There are other things that would seem to conflict with this story. We are told that only a very small percentage of orphans are made available for international adoption. Some say that only 10% are made available for international adoption. That in and of itself tells us that there are lots and lots of babies that aren’t available to us. What happens to those other babies? Surely they are made available for domestic adoption?
Also, what about all of the orphanages that are not part of the international program? Is it not possible that if someone actually lives in the city then they know that it is the other orphanage in town that you call if you want to adopt? Maybe the answer was “no” because the director knew that if the husband was local he would have known to call the other orphanage, where it’s much easier to adopt a baby? He knew she was lying about that, and thus knew that she would not be getting a baby, so he just said “no” without actually calling her a liar.
I’m very disappointed by this article, and terrified that a magazine is going to legitimize it by publishing it.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:15 am
I”m also disappointed that the magazine would consider this. I’d like to know who the methodologist is and I don’t consider this a valid survey since he gathered info. by LYING on the phone! What happened to standards in statistical methods and evaluation research! I’m speaking as someone currently STUDYING statistical methods at the PhD level! I’m not impressed by this guy in general. He went to the SWI our daughters are from and was basically a rude, agressive American demanding information. Sorry folks. It’s not our right to demand paperwork, info, through this guy from a government institution in another country. My opinion. don’t flame me. If it were being done between our governments, it might be different. But this guy is just…a guy in the eyes of the SWIs.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:19 am
As one of those who emailed this to you, and as a former market researcher…this is so full of statistical problems. However, its written and its out there. We need to write to the magazine urgently and give them some food for thought. Anyone know anyone there?
June 29th, 2006 at 9:29 am
I’m now also getting emails from people who have figured out that the “woman” who signed onto their orphanage group early this year and then started asking questions about who had a healthy baby and who didn’t was likely Brian. I’m guessing that’s how he got his 17% NSN number.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:48 am
The contact info for the magazine is:
Adoption Today Magazine
541 E Garden Dr Unit N
Windsor, Colorado 80550
Phone Number: 970-686-7412
Toll Free: 888-924-6736
Fax: 970-686-7412
Email: louis@adoptinfo.net
There is also a form on their site if you prefer that over an email: http://www.adoptinfo.net/contact.html
June 29th, 2006 at 10:07 am
Lots of things annoy me about this article, and lots of things annoy me about Stuy’s site overall and methodology and aggression. But what really annoys me is that he doesn’t have a lot to lose–he has daughters from China already and if the program closes because China is tired of it being criticized, hey, it won’t matter too much to him.
Sometimes I wonder if, in all of his research gathering and tricky, underhanded methods to expose the dark underbelly of IA, he takes the time to stop and actually appreciate the gifts that China has given him.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:15 am
I got through five paragraphs and then my frustration took over and I promptly hit the “back” button — on the most basic level, to employ deceit in order to gain what he’s calling truth and to then imply that no disrespect was intended is ridiculous. It is people like this who make the road such a treacherous seeming one. To offer a sports anology here, if it’s “no foul, no harm” what if there is a foul, as in this case? I worry how people like this affect the rest of our processes. After all, this article is going to be in print (not tucked away neatly on some private adoptive families yahoo site). Just my two cents.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:16 am
Maybe I am just naive, but how can you believe anything in this man’s article when he just admitted he went about his whole fact finding mission by lying!! I’m certainly not a journalist, but lying to people and then publishing their identity (director of a specific orphanage), in a country such as China, is not responsible journalism and especially coming from an adoptive parent of chinese children.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Excellent point, NOvary. It drive me nuts when someone with one ( if that’s all they want) or two or more daughters from china start kicking up a fuss — or worse, talking about how we should all be happy if the IA program ends. Of course, this is AFTER they’ve gotten THEIR daughters out.
It’s that me, me, selfish ” i’ve got mine, who cares about you” attitude. I remember it from the infertility world, and I didn’t appreciate it then either!
June 29th, 2006 at 10:18 am
I, like many of you, am waiting for a referral and get nervous about articles that have the potential to tick off the CCAA. While I also am wondering if he would have as much zeal if he was still waiting for his daughters, I think his article does have some interesting data in it.
While his methods might seem suspect, alot of the data seems to address many of the questions we have about the wait times. While his numbers may not be exact, there does seem to be a definite trend down in regards to number of children available for adoption. Personally I think this is great information to have since more than a few of us are considering adopting a future sibling. Having as much information as possible will help us plan for the future and give us realistic expecations.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:34 am
spinky…if his methods are suspect, how can we trust the data? It is great to have as much info as possible, but don’t we want legit. info? again, if his methods come into question, so do the results…
June 29th, 2006 at 10:52 am
Hi violet :)
I think his information is a bit more reliable than uninformed speculation. I think the main issue people have with Brian is how he irks the CCAA and people feel he puts their potential adoption at risk. Unless we’re saying he’s falsifying the responses he’s getting back from Orphanage staff/officials, I think we need to take this into account. People have posted rumors of less babies being available, but this is the first semi-concrete evidence I’ve seen/heard.
Again, I think a debate about Brian’s methods are a valid point. But when it comes to the comments and adoption trends, I think they should be taken into account and put in context with everything else we are hearing.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Hate the article….yet one thing also bugs me, why would he chew off the hand that feeds him? He makes lots of money on the “finding ads” that he sells……strange….
June 29th, 2006 at 11:00 am
I just got off the phone with the publisher of Adoption Today, who assures me that they are NOT going to publish Brian Stuy’s piece, and never were. Stuy submitted his piece to the magazine, and they called him back telling him that there are flaws in his research, just as we all have found. The publisher has emailed Brian asking him to remove the reference to the magazine, but he hasn’t replied
Adoption Today is, however, going to publish a piece about the slowdown in referrals, that the publisher refers to as a “success story.” He says he interviewed Director Lu in May and many of the big China-only agencies. He stresses that as a dad of 2 from China he knows it’s important to keep the doors open, and the piece is about the positive changes going on in China at the moment. I cautioned him that many of us fear any media attention around China adoption, and he claims he understands. I told him that he’d probably be receiving many calls today, and he welcomes them.
Having just received the referral of my second daughter this week, I’d still rather no story at all was printed, but at least it sounds like it’s going to be a far more positive one than Brian Stuy’s.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:02 am
My biggest problem isn’t that he lied to get the information, my biggest problem is that the lie that was told seems to have been engineered to get as many “no” answers as possible. Having the wife in a far away city is the same as having the family in a far away city, and he as much as states that orphanages will NOT adopt to people who live out of town. It’s almost like he engineered the survey to make the answers the answers he (apparently) wanted to get.
And, my other problem is, of course, that he doesn’t touch on the orphanages that are not open to international adoption. Perhaps a few phone calls to those orphanages would have gotten completely different answers.
I have stood up for Brian in the past, but there is no way I can even think of saying that we should take any of this material seriously.
And I still wonder what his agenda is. That picture is seriously bothering me.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:03 am
debann - thank you so much for letting us know.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Just got an email back from the magazine folks, and they have the following to say:
Benjamin,
Thank you for voicing your concerns. Brian Stuy has inaccurately stated that
we will publish his article. As you expressed, there are several
inaccuracies in Brian’s piece and as a publication that prides itself on
accurate, honest reporting we will not publish what he has to say.
We are, however, working on an in-house article about the current China
slowdown which will appear in the Aug/Sept issue of the magazine. If you
would like to discuss your concerns further, please contact me at
888-924-6736.
Thanks,
Kim Hansel, editor
Adoption Today
Ben
June 29th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Actually he did touch on orphanages that do not do int’l adoptions - but you have to read the footnotes. Basically he stated he called 2 and they both had very long wait lists. But of course, that would invalidate the hint that int’l adoption was impacting the availability of children for domestic adoption, wouldn’t it? Glad to hear Adoption Today is not publishing this.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:21 am
RQ, I soo agree with you. This was done on a biased self proclaimed theory of his own. There was NO WAY he did this research unbiased or open minded. I am a litttle confused about this Brian. The only thing I can think of is that he is doing this for monetary reasons or some unknown self ego thing. Not only am I ticked off at his biased opinions being “translated” as being professional, but WE adoptive parents in the process of adopting from China are going to be feeling the wrath of his unprofessionalism. Meaning, if the IA communtiy takes this mans opinion as being fact, then were does that leave us. Not only that, but how will CHINA feel about this? Lets add some more salt to the wound. Geez..give me a break!
June 29th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Further more, I would like to ask RQ how many, if any, emails she has gotten in the last few weeks about over crowded SWI’s? Cuz, while I do think that in some areas of China there are fewer Children available for adoption, (thanks goodness)however, in the majority of the SWI’s I do NOT think so.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:42 am
that photo is very powerful. but in a very very negative way.
my first impression is that it portrays a struggle between China and “other countries” over the ‘lost girls’ of China.
that is NOT the image or idea that we want to be given. The photo portrays a tug of war to me…China wanting to keep their children in China while the international adoptive community is pulling….demanding they get these children from China. While we all ‘want our babies’ we do so having gone through this difficult process and with the knowledge that they are a precious gift. China has never HAD TO or has ever been forced to open their doors to international adoption. They, like many of the other countries, have allowed their children to be adopted because in the end the children need loving homes…loving parents.
yes…for the daughters of China to remain in China with loving families is the best and ultimate goal. but until then there are families in the international community that can give these babies homes and families as well.
To portray the adoption of a Chinese child as is (to me) being done in that photo is a travesty. Especially by Mr. Stuy.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:54 am
p.s. I did read the ‘article’ as well. Just don’t think it’s worth any more of my thoughts on it. To me the photo says more than the article. :(
June 29th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
checked out Brian’s responses that he is getting on his blog and he is getting blasted for all the untruths… especially the part about getting publised!!! Love it!!!
June 29th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Even though someone has gotten a response back from “Adoption Today”, I STILL sent them an email. I am so upset by Brian’s article because of his “research” methods engineered to get the answer HE wanted… but I’m more upset about his claim that China is in violation with the Hague Convention based on his “research”. This can be very hurtful to IA!!!
I hope “Adoption Today” will be FLOODED with calls and emails today - enough so they they will be VERY, VERY careful before they publish any article by Mr. Stuy!!!
June 29th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
I just got a reply back from “Adoption Today”. They say the same thing as the post above - thye will NOT print the article. They Wait Time article is not being written by Mr. Stuy. They also say something which I was very happy to see…
“Adoption TODAY would not participate in any discourse that would discredit the adoption process in China. We believe the China adoption program is a model that other countries would be better served to duplicate.”
Bravo Adoption Today!!!!
June 29th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Was it just me that clicked over to the blog of the peson he quoted: Hubinete? It was evil! It’s an asian international adoptee, I don’t know from where, who is very vulgarly and aggressively stating that he was abducted! His poor parents. My mother-in law always says: No good deed goes unpunished. He says (I think, the site was too repulsive for me to read much) that all interracial international adoptions are abductions from the birth culture. Like whites raping the poor countries of people of color. I wonder if his parents hadn’t adopted him if he would have been appreciating his birth culture while begging for scraps on the street and sleeping on the pavement, or simply not being able to get an education, or whatever dreadful things happen to orphans in Asia.
It incenses me that Brian Stuy would use the opinion of a blogger with that ugly agenda in his piece. As though the man were a even-minded thoughtful writer.
June 29th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
I scanned the article and the comments. Is he really going to criticize the CCAA for not fully complying with the Hague since they just signed it late 2005? The US signed and then ratified the Hague Convention many years ago and it’s only possibly going to be implemented in 2007/08.
Costa Rica signed the Hague and implmented it many years ago. They refuse to adopt children to US citizens until the US fully implements the Hague. I know it’s been at least 2 years since I spoke with them. They made this change in policy b/c of shady US adoption agencies, poor PPR statistics and possible illegal activities in the private adoptions being done through CR.
If people stop supporting Brian by using his services he will simply go away. You don’t need him to get you the finding ad. Most SWI directors have them. All you need to do is ask.
June 29th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Since the relatives merits of international versus domestic adoption (for adoptees) came up in both the Stuy article and now in the comments, I hope it’s okay to mention here. While my natural tendency is to feel a bit defensive reading blogs that discuss the negative side of international adoption, I also get frustrated when other adoptive parents respond by downplaying the adoptees’ arguments and/or by focusing on parents’ beliefs about why the child is better off in one scenario versus the other.
The unfortunate truth is that some adoptees would prefer to have stayed in their country of birth. As adoptive parents we may be offended by that idea, but we can’t prove it wrong. It’s highly subjective.
Of course, I hope and believe that I will provide better care and parenting than my child would receive in an orphanage. I don’t believe that I will necessarily be a better parent to my child than a Chinese person who adopted domestically. All things being equal, it is my personal belief that the first choice for all children would be adoption to a family in the country of origin.
My point is simply that by appealing to emotional defenses of our decision to adopt (e.g., my child is better off here, don’t those bitter adoptees know how much we wanted a child), we are setting our children up to feel grateful to us for adopting them, while simultaneously implying that our life needs and choices are more important than theirs. It’s just a dangerous road to start down on, I believe.
June 29th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Bravo, Deborah. Very well said.
I feel very uncomfortable when I hear an adoptive parent is adopting to “save” a child, and that the child would have a terrible life if it weren’t for the adoption. While I tend to shy away from blogs that are negative about adoption, it’s not because I begrudge that person their feelings, it’s because I would rather focus on the ways I can make my adoption the most positive experience for everyone in my family. I hope that I have educated myself enough to be there for my child no matter how she eventually feels about her adoption. I am not saving a child, I am building a family.
June 29th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
very well said Deborah, thank you!
June 29th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
I’ve been a long-time lurker, but Deborah’s comment made me feel compelled to post. It’s one of the most articulate, thoughtful and sensible things I’ve seen written here.
June 29th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Long time reader, first time poster.
I was outraged by this article and sent an email to the publisher:
Here’s my email and the response:
RE: The Hague Agreement and China’s International Adoption Program
You should be ashamed printing such garbage with information acquired with deceitful methods and flawed statistical calculations.
I strongly recommend you withdraw this article immediately, as it’s not in support of adoption but encourages lies, deceit and wrongful accusations.
These are not values we teach our children and you mustn’t endorse such invidious journalism.
I even wager to say, that such an article might endanger ongoing and future adoptions.
I’m truly sorry I subscribe to your magazine, however, I will certainly not extend it and will take it off my list/website of recommended magazines.
Here’s the REPLY:
Thank you for voicing your concerns. Brian Stuy has inaccurately stated that
we will publish his article. As you expressed, there are several
inaccuracies in Brian’s piece and as a publication that prides itself on
accurate, honest reporting we will not publish what he has to say. Please do not base our publication on the inaccurate statement that Brian’s piece will be published in our magazine. We WILL NOT print what he has written and never planned to.
We are, however, working on an in-house article about the current China
slowdown which will appear in the Aug/Sept issue of the magazine. For this article we have spoken with well-respected adoption agency members to give our readers an accurate representation of what to expect of China adoption in the future. If you
would like to discuss your concerns further, please contact me at
XXX-XXX-XXXX (since this email was addressed to me I’ve taken out her number).
Thanks,
Kim Hansel, editor
Adoption Today
June 29th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I for one don’t have a problem with saying my daughter will have a better life in the US with me! I will do the best I can to assure this happens…as all parents should. I don’t understand why on adoption boards everyone feels compelled to say it would be better for the child to stay in their home county…â€ifâ€, “ifâ€, “ifâ€. As an immigrant myself, who came to the US for more opportunities and a better life, I have no difficulty in believing that these same benefits will apply to my Chinese-born daughter. Sorry, no apologies from me.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
I love what Deborah wrote, and I want to add this:
I have a sense that some of the readers of Brian’s blog are incensed that he would jeopardize the future of Chinese adoption by exploring these issues. This attitude makes me uncomfortable. While I am concerned about and skeptical of his methodology, I think there is merit in asking the questions he does. He’s an adoptive father of Chinese children. He wants to be as informed as possible when his daughters come to him with questions about the circumstances that led to their abandonment and subsequent adoption to another country. It seems terribly one-sided to me for other pre-adoptive parents to say, “Hey! Keep quiet and don’t ruin it for the rest of us!”
When the Hunan baby-trafficking story broke, I felt very nervous. What if we were getting a child who was stolen from a happy, loving family? What if our future daughter came to us as a 15 year old, holding a magazine article she found dated November 2005 about the Hunan scandal, and asked us how she could ever be sure she was truly abandoned and in need of a home? I’ll never have a definitive answer to that question, but I think it’s my responsibility as a parent of an internationally adopted child to think about it a bit, to look at the issues, warts and all. The *conclusions* Brian comes to may be irresponsible, but the questions are not. Not in my opinion anyway.
I’d be much happier if his blog was titled, “Essays Related to China Adoption” or “Hypothesis About China Adoption.” I have a problem with him presenting his work as “research” and the authority that conjures. But the issues he raises make me think, and I think that’s a good thing. I think of his blog much as I do this one–food for thought, certainly not gospel truth. I just wish he did as good a job as our fair RQ in terms of reminding his audience of the limits of his information.
Some of you may want to remind me that Brian makes money off Chinese adoption by providing finding ads, and may feel I am being too generous in my assumption about his motivations for his “research.” Maybe so. But I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intentions. While reading the latest blog entry and anticipating the comments he was going to get from the adoptive community, I thought to myself, “Wow. This guy is really a glutton for punishment. Why doesn’t be give it up already?” I have to believe he keeps it up and invites the abuse because he thinks he is doing a good thing.
It would be easy for me to see Brian and myself on opposite edges of a great divide. He’s got his Chinese adoptees already, and I’m still waiting. But someday soon I’ll be right where he is, and I’m allowing room for the possibility that my perspective might change once I’m holding an actual child. In my clumsy attempt at due diligence in parenting this child, I may make missteps or stir the pot. That wouldn’t mean I have an “agenda” or lack regard for anyone who comes after me. A parent’s gotta do what a parent’s gotta do.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
For every IA adopted child that wishes he/she were not removed from their culture there are probably as many who are fine with it….I don’t think it’s an IA issue as much as an adoption issue in general….my husband was adopted in this country and as an adoptee with no info on his birthmother……he harbors a lot of “what ifs” and “who am I’s”………….at least with our daughter, we will have a few pieces of her background…..where she was found, her orphanage. As parents, you do the best you can.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Deborah and Marythefifth,
Thank you for your posts - I share your views, and you expressed them so well. Marythefifth said “But someday soon I’ll be right where he is, and I’m allowing room for the possibility that my perspective might change once I’m holding an actual child.” This really hits home for me. I thought I was well-prepared for the adoption of my daughter, but when I look at her lovely and trusting face I often feel wholly unprepared to cope with the questions she will have for me, and the questions that I still have about how she came to be my daughter. I am a good parent, I will love her and nurture and protect her, but I believe it is her right and my duty to seek greater understanding. As we wait for the referral of our second child from China, I feel a loss of “innocence,” for lack of a better word, this time around. It is uncomfortable, and I hope that my feelings of discomfort will ultimately result in a certain humility that helps me become a better parent to an internationally adopted child.
June 29th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Because I believe my original comment was misunderstood by some, I’d like to clarify.
I believe I can offer my child a better opportunity than she would have in an orphanage in China. I would never adopt with the belief that the child would be worse off. I also feel no need to apologize to anyone for my decision to adopt.
That said, my belief that my daughter will be better off with me is not fact, it is just my opinion. I only want what is best for my future daughter. I want what is best for her over and above what is best for me. And someday, she might tell me that she doesn’t think all of the choices I made were best for her. Ultimately, my point is that if she ever said one tiny bit of the things that are said on the blog Stuy references, I would be truly crushed. But me being crushed wouldn’t make me right and her wrong.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Deborah, sorry to tell you this…but there is no escaping it! Don’t worry though because you will be in good company: every parent in the past and present! I work in High Schools, and children questioning their parents’ choices isn’t new. It seems that the person quoted was particularly harsh (I have not read it)…but I would assume his comments actually have less to do with IA in general, and more about him, or an unfortunate situation he was raised in.
June 29th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Its the current vogue in intellectual/academic circles to decry the loss of a racial identity in groups of minorities raised in the Western (read “white”) countries. A few vocal and angry adoptees who’ve grown up to feel that they were stripped of their culture (admittedly, being born into another country, there is more merit to that idea than an anonymously abandoned Asian child in America) should not be seen as the norm. Deny your child any kind of meaningful Chinese culturual exposure, and this could happen to them. I’ll do all I can to prevent this feeling of “loss”. I won’t pretend my child is a Caucasian.
My parents were not particularly religious, but saw the value in taking me to church regularly to expose me to religion and Christianity. I’m glad they did, because some friends I grew up with who were denied this experience went on to become hyper-focused on religion later in life, to what I consider a near “cult” like level.
If you raise your daughter to feel secure in her own identity that transcends race, while exposing her to Chinese culture with regularity, there should be much less of a chance of bitter feelings later in life.
Just my take…
June 29th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
But Deborah, it IS wrong for a person to call his adoptive parents M-F#$# abductors! He should be grateful enough to his parents to not be so nastily wounding and aggressive. I’m not afraid of gratefulness in my children. It is my hope that my bio children will be grateful as adults for my having borne them and raised them lovingly, and my adopted child for having adopted her and raised her lovingly. Gratefulness is a virtue in children, any children, and I call that man’s site viciously ungrateful! If my child, adopted or bio, publicly denigrates me in such an ugly way when they are older, I’ll be crushed, but I’ll also know they are deeply wrong.
All of us adoptive parents are doing a good thing, for ourselves, but also of course for them. It would be wonderful to know that without us, their chances at happiness in their own country would have been nil, but I guess the subject is at best cloudy. But we are giving them the love and security of a Family, and can there be anything better?
June 29th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
I’ll try this one more time, with apologies to RQ for taking over her site. :)
I agree that the language used is harsh and ungrateful. My first point is simply that it isn’t fair to expect gratitude from my adopted child simply because I adopted her. Because I loved her, cared for her, etc? Sure, I hope she’ll be grateful. To me that is profoundly different than expecting her to be grateful because I adopted her. Being adopted is simply how she came to me. We don’t become saints or sinners on the basis of how we meet.
Regarding the site in question: In reading between the (very, very harsh) lines, I actually think there are some good points made. It sounds like some of the adoptees were brought to a country and then perceived that their country of origin was looked down upon. As they describe it, they were told that their “Korean”ness (for lack of a better word, and I can’t remember the exact term they used) was bad. They were considered successful and good if they adapted to a white culture, whereas their interest in their birth culture was considered warped. (These are some examples. Those with the stomach to read more can check out the link via Stuy’s blog).
I don’t think IA is directly to blame for these adoptees’ reactions. No doubt there are interaction effects such as parenting style, personality, etc. that come into play. I also don’t believe that most or all international adoptees feel this way, but to be honest that’s a gut feeling and not based on any empirical evidence whatsoever. Finally, I truly don’t believe the adoptive parents wanted their children to feel this way. And yet, they do.
My only point in any of my comments was that we can and SHOULD feel differently than our children if they call us abductors, say we bought them, etc. I just don’t think it’s effective to make our arguments by saying things like “Well, you’re better off here than you would have been there, so quit your complaining.” I think that would set the child up for a “no-win” situation in which she could never be grateful enough, which in turn would be distancing and also likely cause anger and resentment.
I take what I can from the experiences of adoptees, and I disregard (but don’t discount) the things I can’t learn from. Call me an abductor, I’ll tell you I’m not. Tell me there are things you want to know about your birth culture, or that sometimes you wish you were still living in China, or sometimes you imagine another life you might have been living…well, that I will listen to without judgment, no matter how hard it is for me to hear.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
Rosie, the person you are talking about had his own set of experiences and has his own opinion about adoption. There is no “should” about it. We don’t know the specifics of how he was raised, and we have no right to tell him that he “should” feel a certain way just because he was adopted.
Unless we have been in his shoes, we cannot judge. I get a little freaked out when I read angry pieces about adoption, but it’s important to recognize that they are based on personal experiences and are not speaking for everyone.
Overall, I get uncomfortable by the idea that my children should be “grateful” to me for adopting or birthing them. They do not ask to be adopted or birthed–I do this because I want a family. Gratefulness in children is one thing, but asking them to be grateful because you have brought them into the world or because you are “rescuing” them from what you think might be a bad life is not the same thing. That is setting you up to be a savior of the child, and therefore putting the child in the position of needing to be saved. As far as I’m concerned, once I have my child, I’m guessing I’ll think any parent would be lucky to have my child. No child should have to feel that they need to thank someone else for their existence. (Gratefulness for that cool bike I buy for my child, now that’s a totally different story.)
The last thing I wonder about was your line “All of us adoptive parents are doing a good thing, for ourselves, but also of course for them. It would be wonderful to know that without us, their chances at happiness in their own country would have been nil, but I guess the subject is at best cloudy.” Yes, in the end we are doing a good thing, but it’s not that simple. It’s a very complicated thing. We have to remember that our children might not feel it’s a good thing all the time, and we need to respect that. I don’t know if you meant to say that it would be wonderful to know that without us our children’s chances of happiness would be nil. I don’t think it would be wonderful at all–in fact, it breaks my heart to think that without me my child-to-be would have no chance of happiness. I would hope that all of us have many chances of happiness, and that the children who aren’t adopted have many chances of happiness.
I know the first time I came across angry websites about adoption, I was floored and immediately lost it. I was upset for a long time, defensive, wondering how the person could feel that way. But there are plenty of people, adopted and not adopted, who are angry at their parents. As you might not read the blog of someone who hates their biological parents, don’t let the angry blogs about adoption get to you too much.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
I’ve been very busy today and haven’t been able to join in the conversation, but I just want to say that I’m so happy that everyone expressed their differences of opinion in a civil manner.
I have a lot to say about the “angry adoptee” discussion, I’m just not sure I have it in me to write about it at the moment.
I have already written about my feelings around “saving” children though - you can read that here: http://rqfamily.blogspot.com/2006/04/saving-children.html
Ya’ll carry on with your conversation and don’t feel the need to apologize about changing the subject - it’s a very interesting conversation.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
I’ve stayed away from posting on this thread with the exception of earlier about the article…well, mostly the picture on Stuy’s blog.
But I want to say this. It doesn’t matter of what race, background, gender, etc the child is or the parents are. There will be a time where the child is going to come to self-realisation and question his parents choices on everything. The child is going to hate the situation they’re in. They’re going to question everything, search for their own way…their own answers to what is in their hearts. I know I did. And I don’t know many others that didn’t at one time as well.
I feel that surely we as adoptive parents of a girl from a different country, background, culture, etc may have a different situation considering, but on a most basic level we don’t. A child is still going to be a child who will grow and develop under their parents care and guidance. Any parent in any culture will say they want their child to have better then they did. This isn’t different between a parent of a bio child or an adopted one.
As a parent…first time as well…I will do the best I can. Will I make mistakes? damn right I will. Will I make choices that I will later wonder if I should’ve chose another way? Of course. But…and more importantly, I will provide my child a loving home, an extended family, education, guidance, opportunities, exposure to other ideologies, cultures, art, music, her own country’s history and culture…I could go on. And when she gets to the age where she begins to wonder who she is and how she fits in…where she’s from…begins the self-realisation and questioning stage…I along with my wife will have, hopefully, provided a solid enough family foundation and relationship between her and us that she can go through that with us and know that we will be there for her…we will try to answer her questions…try to understand her feelings and thoughts. That’s all we can do…I think that’s all any parent can do. I think about and look back at how I was as a child…pre-teen…teen…and how my parents handled things. I have a much different view of how things were now. A greater respect for my parents and how I was raised.
people ask and wonder if these children would be better off with a family in their own country rather than a family from another. Perhaps…but perhaps not. How can anyone know for sure what family situation…what kind of childhood…what kind of future these children will have either in China or in the US or Canada or Spain…???
I think as parents we all want to be the best parents for their child and feel that we can do better for them than if they were elsewhere. What kind of parents would we be if we felt like…well she’d been better off in China.
just my opinion.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Deborah, will you come live in a closet in my house and be my parenting coach 24/7? :)
ljpccp, I thought it was so interesting what you said about your “loss of innocence” for your 2nd adoption. I can see how that would be true. And I LOVED what you wrote about humility. Great thought.
I also have to say that I just appreciate this conversation so much. I’m a first time China adopter, still waiting, but the kind of person who always overeducates herself. The result: I’m terrified of raising an internationally adopted daughter. I’m convinced it is the right thing for our family, but scared silly nonetheless. Much of the time I feel alone with my fear amid all the bib-swapping and quilt-making and joyful anticipation. I find myself thinking, “Isn’t anyone else as freaked out as I am?!” It’s a comfort to participate in this discussion and know that other people are grappling with the same issues. I’ve also learned from reading posters’ opinions today.
Many months ago a similar conversation was going on over on APC (much less politely, to be sure). The chorus of post-adoptive parents was “It’s best for these orphans to be adopted within their birth culture.” I thought, “If you think adopting them and bringing them to another country is so terrible, why the heck did you do it?” and “Easy for you to say…you’ve got your kid already.” Then last month I met a family friend at an airport when he and his wife arrived back from China with their new daughter. The baby ended up getting passed around the crowd (Gasp! Call the Attachment Police!) and I held her for about 2 minutes. I spent that short time imagining what it would feel like if she were really my daughter, or how it would feel when I was holding my daughter at last. I can’t quite explain what I felt, except that it was a fair dose of sorrow for this child, that her life had to start the way it did, that like it or not she’d have to deal with that, come to terms with the simple fact that she has been forever separated from the mother who birthed her, for reasons she’ll probably never know. It made me terribly sad for my friend’s little girl, and I knew in that instant how much worse it would be for my own daughter….that I’d want to take away that pain but wouldn’t be able to.
In a strange way, that experience made me better understand how a post-adoptive parent can live in the murky waters of loving the child in front of her, relish the job of parenting her, and still acknowledge the pain that comes from the circumstances of her early life and all its accompanying losses. I realized that even if, for my daughter, Option A (growing up in our white family in the U.S.) is better than Option B (growing up in an orphanage in China), that doesn’t mean she isn’t entitled to mourn the loss of Options C (growing up with her birth family) and D (growing up in an adoptive family in China)–even if Options C and D weren’t “real” options for her. And if she were someday to believe that Option D may really have been on the table? Well, those are muddy waters indeed. Ultimately it’s up to her, and I hope I can be the parent she needs if/when these feelings surface.
Sorry, RQ, for taking over your blog! If I could just get a darn referral I’d be too busy and smitten to read blogs and would be much happier and much less conflicted! :)
June 29th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
marythefifth that was awesome.
“Ultimately it’s up to her, and I hope I can be the parent she needs if/when these feelings surface.” That’s what I’m talking about… (re: my post) :)
June 29th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
marythefifth that was really well written and moving. I had goosebumps!! And the way you describe the options-that’s what I was trying to get at, you said it much better.
June 29th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
We have five children - ages 19 down to 2. Judging by the some of the previous comments, it’s not likely I’ll get much support here…but, oh well, for what it’s worth…here goes :-)
Neither children, nor adults, need to have every “feeling” validated. For goodness sake, I don’t even “validate” all of my own “feelings”.
I come from what some would deem a horrid background. Physically, verbally, and sexually abused by my father. A mom who eventually left him (thankfully) and raised 6 children in THE worst neighbourhood of the city I grew up in. In what most today would consider abject poverty. We had a very, very rough time of it.
So what!
I am 46 years old. I could spend the rest of my life thinking “woe is me”. But I don’t. Why?
One: I now have faith in God (oops, not allowed to mention that here).
Two: Multiple millions of people have it worse than I ever did.
Three: Can’t do a thing about it.
So, guess what I teach our children - by word and deed? Get over it. Deal with what you’ve been handed. And don’t spend your entire life regretting that it wasn’t “perfect” - like there ever was such a thing.
Virtually every and any topic is open for discussion in our family, but not every “feeling” gets justified. Our family is very, very close. Our children, young and old, come to us with all their problems. We listen. We give advice. We help them put things into perspective. If they, because they are yet young and immature, think something is bigger than it actually is, we tell them so. That’s our job. And you know why it’s our job? ‘Cause we’re the parents. We’ve lived longer. And we know more about life than they do.
Today’s advice to parents? “Just listen.” “Don’t feel you need to give them advice”. “Let them work it out themselves” - NONSENSE! They are going to get advice somewhere, and the best place to get it is from their parents - not their young and immature peers. Teach them “how” to think. Don’t let them get into the habit of giving in to every sorrow in life. For their sake.
Guess what? We have extremely confident and assured children. Our teens are not, and never have been sullen, angry, or depressed. They love being with us. And we love being with them. Not a week goes by that our big 6′2″, 200 lb. son, doesn’t throw his arms around his 5′2′, never mind how much I weigh, mother - and tell me how much he loves me, how glad he is I’m his mother. And you know what? He does the same with his father. Likewise with the rest. Physical affection is never in short supply in our home.
If you want children who wallow in every slight, every hurt - real or imagined - just justify every “feeling”.
Our adopted children have the same needs as our biological children. They may have started life under different circumstances - but their ultimate needs are the same. Will we listen if, and when, they their losses? Of course we will. But we will also remind them, “It coulda been worse”. And it most certainly coulda been!
June 29th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
I love this site b/c of the fact that there are so many wise people out there who can discuss issues like grown-ups!(read:unlike APC) As an adoptee(domestic)I have to wonder if my parents had spent as much time as Brian and some others constantly persuing facts about my past to make me feel complete, would they have had enough time to work on my character, and to lead me to to become a woman with a sense of purpose and self worth about who I am, not where I’m from?
June 29th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
DebbieY- Exactly!!!!!
June 29th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
I have a 4 yr old bio daughter. We are getting a lot of grief from people because we have chosen to adopt #2. I think one of the biggest mistakes I could potentially make is to completely ignore my #2 daughter’s past, but I think it would be equally as big a mistake to fixate on it too closely, especially since we plan on having other bio children. Nothing like making her feel like an outsider. I plan on directing a lot of her adoption concerns toward her father, who at 38, is still working through his issues as an adoptee.
DebbieY—I love your advice about giving kids advice. You are right, nowadays, it seems they get it from everywhere but home.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
debbiey…well put!
but what did you mean about ‘judging from some of the previous comments you may not get any support’?
I think what you say perfectly augments what some of us are saying/thinking.
:)
June 29th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
While I appreciate how introspective many adoptive parents are, I fear too strong an emphasis is placed on “losses”.
Yes, lets be sensitive…but on the other hand lets not scare prospective parents away and obsess. I live in a multicultural urban area, so possibly its different for me…but loss of culture imho is overplayed a bit. Your daughter is not going to be without culture, she will have yours. I have German, Polish, Korean, Mexican neighbors whose children don’t speak or participate in the culture (or language) of their parents & grandparents and absolutely nobody is losing sleep over it. NPR had an interesting interview with internationally adopted children attending “culture camps” and most didn’t like them. When polled on their biggest concerns in life…it perfectly mirrored their non-adopted peers: TV, music & fashion. I am very troubled by terms like “loss of innocence” & “murky waters”.
Will all due respect, I find such feelings unhealthy for a parent. I prefer to deal with facts: the child is in an orphanage, in a developing nation, with traditional female rolls. Yes, I’ll teach and expose my daughter to Chinese culture…to a limit.
June 29th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
DebbieY: Right-On-The-Mark!
June 29th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Personally I need DebbieY, Deborah and Marythefifth to come raise ME.
Mthe5th - thanks especially to you for your expressing your fears and resolutions. We came very close about a month ago from backing out - I was neck deep in angry adoptee blogs and drowning in doubt. Finally my husband and my good friend (my local version of DebbieY) told me to put the keyboard down and walk away from all but RQ. I personally am going to save the above entries to read again to remind me about what wonderful and dedicated people there are - people who are dedicated to confront difficult questions, knowing that they have enough love to bear the answers.
Thanks to everyone above.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
DebbieY–That’s food for thought. I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I’ve got 3 bio kids myself, and I think (based on what you’ve described in your post) that if a third party observed us both parenting for a day, our parenting styles would look pretty similar. This discussion, like all internet discussions, is getting polarized when it doesn’t need to. I’m not sure how wanting to be sensitive to a child’s struggles necessarily churns out “children who wallow in every slight.” As tgredthread suggested, I think we’re talking here about nuances in parenting philosophies that are not in opposition to one another. Somehow we’ve morphed into two camps–the “I’m looking for issues so my kid’s going to have them” camp vs. the “you’ll be fine because I think you’ll be fine” camp. I guess I’ve been put in the former, which is funny because over on APC I definitely lean the other way. But this is a nice change of pace, and it’s fun to check out the view from over here! :)
But there is a key difference between us, DebbieY. Per your own telling, you have faced significant struggles in your life. Truth is, I really haven’t. I’ve got TONS of gratitude for my various blessings, and my chief mission as a parent is to teach my children gratitude and perspective. But YOU have “street cred” where adversity is concerned. If any of your children comes to you with a problem, you are in a unique position to offer advice based on your life experience. Having lived life on Easy Street, I have less conviction about how best to help any of my children–but especially my internationally adopted one–in their future struggles, whatever they may be. Likewise it’s going to take me a minute to think how to respond to my Chinese daughter when she laments that very few people around her look the way she does. I certainly can’t speak from experience! That’s why I’m currently honing my listening skills more than my advice-giving skills.
My own parents, who did the bulk of their parenting of me in far less warm-and-fuzzy times, nonetheless did an amazing job of keeping their mouths shut about my decisions and attitudes (okay, except for the time in 7th grade when they threatened to kick me out of the family for only caring about myself–I deserved it!). I got most things right, but some wrong. But I appreciated that they let me make my own mistakes and yes, “validated my feelings” by listening to me instead of rushing in with an opinion. Now that I am a parent I appreciate how difficult it must have been for them to do this. Yes, they were my parents and they were plenty authoritarian in the ways that mattered. Again, we’re talking nuances. They came across as people who didn’t always have all the answers and in so doing gave me a great gift. Responsibility, for one, and an appreciation of life’s complexities for another.
But I’m not even convinced it’s really up to us all that much. A part of me thinks kids are wired with a certain amount of resiliency and adaptability that we can only influence but not fundamentally change. When I was student teaching ten years ago, my mentor teacher was talking about a kid whose mother had died two days before and the student was back at school already. She said, “Some kids suffer a tragedy like that and take it in stride. Others get a hangnail and fall apart.” I’ve thought about that remark so much since I became a mother, and even more when I read about the happy adult adoptees versus the angry ones. We adoptive parents want to take the nurture side of the debate. After all, we get to take credit for our own happy little adoptees and still blame the parents of the angry adult adoptees. But nature may have a lot more to do with it than we think.
And now, I’m off to numb my mind with a stupid chick flick!
June 29th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Okay, I can’t resist saying one more thing….
The reason there are 500 parenting books on the shelf at the bookstore is that there is more than one right way to do it. I think it matters more to find the way that fits you best. You can’t be someone you are not or parent in a way that is unnatural to you. Some of us are going to be babywearers and bed sharers, some Ferberizers, some time-outers and some time-iners, some positive disciplinarians and some spankers, some of our kids are going to take Mandarin classes and some aren’t. Vive la difference! None of those approaches guarantees anything, so we’re all going to have to roll with the punches.
Okay, now I’m really done. I swear!
June 29th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
Thanks all for great discussion. Special kudos to marythefifth…you know how to say it! Your last statment wrapped it all up VERY well IMHO. :0)
June 29th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
Again, well said marythefifth. I agree with everything you said (uncannily so!). I don’t have children yet, but I know that with my nieces and nephews I’m probably the strictest of the siblings. I don’t take any crap! :)
DebbieY, you sound like an amazing mom who is able to draw on a lot of past experiences to help your kids, and it definitely sounds like you’ve got a great family. The only issue I would raise regarding your comment is that I never heard anyone say (on this specific thread, I mean!) that we should validate all of our children’s feelings. Speaking for myself, I only discussed the one particular issue of gratitude for being adopted and I never meant to imply that every last one of my child’s opinions and feelings would be discussed and debated. It just strikes me that the very specific issue of whether you should expect gratitude from your child because you adopted him or her is one that is problematic. You can ask my niece about validating other feelings, because she wasn’t getting any of that when she spent the night this weekend! And I’m guessing I’ll be pretty strict with my daughter as well.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
you know the thing that I like about this particular discussion (besides the fact everyone’s being “civilized”) is that it is definitely enlightening. I honestly can say that I’m glad to be a part of this and to ‘listen’ and see other viewpoints. Even when a similar idea or ideal/belief is being presented by different people it’s like looking at something from a slightly different angle. I think we all can be enriched by each others ‘opinions’ (even if we disagree) as long as they’re constructive and there’s some validity to them. I do try to not say anything if I don’t feel I have a foundation for it. well, unless i’m just being silly. ;p
and I honestly don’t know how many other guys are frequent in posting here…but I really have to say I haven’t felt “outnumbered” as it were in the postings here. :)
okay, finally, i have to comment on something marythefifth mentioned about kids being wired with a certain amount of resiliency and adaptability. absolutely! I think that kids have the ability to adapt and work out things for themselves to a much greater degree than we give them credit for. at least I have found they do…like i said, first time to be a parent here, but I have many friends with children from 1 to 5yrs and a couple of nieces who are 10 and 13 so I hear stories hehe. and I think we as adults still have those capabilities it’s just we are slower at it and we tend to ‘overthink’ things more. i know i’m guilty of that sometimes….hehe
June 29th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
Hi tgredthread,
Possibly I’d misunderstood, but I thought some were inclined to validate the feelings (or the expression of those feelings) of the adult adoptees who liken International Adoption to abductions and worse. Very obviously, I disagree with doing so.
That’s why I didn’t think I’d get any support. Much to my delightful surprise, I see that isn’t the case.
Personally, I will not validate such vitriol. If an adoptee, or a non-adoptee for that matter, has had a less than perfect life, c’est la vie! So have many (most? all?) others.
My advice to them is to get on with life, go do something worthwhile. But for heaven’s sake, they ought not spend their entire young adulthood - and possibly the rest of their lives - whining about it.
Adoption is good. In a perfect world there wouldn’t be a need for it, but it’s not a perfect world. Again, adoption is good - all around - for moms and dads, and for children.
And for those of you out there on that inflammatory adoption board, do not let the nutty rantings of a few dissuade you. Go and get your baby and thoroughly enjoy the rest of your life with him or her.
June 30th, 2006 at 12:11 am
I agree. I have to say that there are some people out there, adoptees and those that aren’t, who feel they’ve had a horrible experience…a horrible childhood and feel like they’re owed. That or they need to spread their word to others and hope that there are people who feel for them…who will side with their ’cause’. I would hope that most of us and those who are potential adoptive parents would see these things for what they are and not get ‘dissuaded’ as you say.
I told the DW about the subject…the origin of this thread which was the blog by mr. Stuy. She laughed and said something to the effect of if the Central Gov’t disrupted the IA program just because of that guy then there’s bigger problems than we know. People will side with his viewpoints. People with side with those that cry out about IA being ….detrimental. let them. One time to be selfish in life (and be selfish with thousands of others) is to know what’s right for you…what’s right in your heart and mind and gut and forget about what everyone else may say. The one thing I won’t stand for is someone telling me how I should be a parent. I won’t even let my parents tell me how to be a parent. :) I don’t think any of us hear have done that…and I wanted to just know that you knew we’re all on the same side with this issue. :)
I value your input and viewpoint.
June 30th, 2006 at 12:13 am
I must’ve been typing my last post when marythefifth and Deborah were posting theirs.
You are both very articulate and well spoken. I very, very much appreciate what you’ve said, and the spirit with which you’ve said it.
I’m sure I don’t have to qualify this, but will anyway. Obviously, I do not believe parents should NEVER justify feelings. Some feelings are fully justifiable. My point was simply that not EVERY feeling ought to be justified.
Certainly our children ought to be able to express every feeling, but we must use tremendous care and wisdom in order to not feed or perpetuate detrimental feelings.
Each one of us probably knows people who only see the negative in every circumstance. Personally, I believe we can choose to see the postive in most things. That’s what we’ve tried to teach our children.
Are there times when no amount of “positive thinking” will cheer us, or change our situation? Certainly. But I think that can be the exception, rather than the rule.
I will mimic the sentiments already expressed. This has been an excellent discussion. And the spirit with which it has been carried out is a testimony to the decency found within the members of this board.
June 30th, 2006 at 12:20 am
p.s. besides…if mr Stuy lived in China and wrote some of the detrimental things about the government (in regards to the Hague) and continued to do the things he did with the methods he apparently used…I’m sure the provincial police would occasionally pay him a visit…keep an eye on him…etc. I’ve done enough reading and watching of programs to know there’s a pretty good chance that would happen.
June 30th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Is this the part where we all join hands and sing “Kumbaya”? Ha ha. What a lovefest! ;)
That’s the most online fun I’ve had in a long time. Thanks, everyone!
June 30th, 2006 at 1:03 am
My wife and I are parenting three sons ages 18, 16 and 3. The youngest we adopted from China. I am very impressed by DebbieY’s children’s ability to have traversed adolescence without a moment of anger or sullenness. I confess our experience hasn’t been quite as spectacular, though I think we do okay.
Of course gratitude from our children is desirable but it cannot be expected, only earned.
My awareness of the controversies inherent in international adoption is much higher now that I am actually a parent of a child born in China. These are serious issues and must be considered. Brian’s stats aren’t perfect, but I’m not sure how you would get better ones. Many of the objections people have voiced to his methods are merely red herrings to the point of the discussion he raises. Fear of angering the CCAA is not a valid reason for silencing him. Remember, his blog is not even viewable in most of China due to government censorship. In this country he has the freedom of speech.
June 30th, 2006 at 2:18 am
Hello Scott,
I do hope you realize I did not mean our teens have not ever experienced moments of anger - for of course they have from time-to-time been perturbed at some thing or another. What I meant is that they do not exude anger - as so very many teens today do. They are outgoing, confident young people, who walk around with heads held high, look everyone they meet in the eye, and are able and willing to engage virtually anyone in conversation - young or old.
Nor do they exhibit that sullen expression of the body which seems to characterize a good number of young people today. They are generally very cheerful and upbeat, a genuine pleasure be around. And lest you think I’m just an extremely biased mom - which I am, of course - we seldom meet other adults that some comment is not later made regarding the character of our eldest children.
Do I think it is simply because we are such clever parents? Of course not. They are inherently cheerful and engaging individuals. I do think, however, that the general tone of our home - being fairly consistently happy - by choice - has certainly benefitted them.
As to your comments about Mr. Stuy, certainly he has the right to speak of whatever he cares to - for as you say, freedom of speech is still a valued right in North America. Nevertheless, even if something is true (and some believe his statistics, and the methods by which he obtains them are not), it behooves men and women of good character to use care and consideration when presenting it.
Many believe Mr. Stuy takes liberties he ought not. And could his motives be construed as purely altruistic, one might forgive him. Some believe, however, that his motives are self-serving. So they, too, ought to be free to say what they think. As I’m sure you’ll agree.
June 30th, 2006 at 3:52 am
Just logged on this morning and wow…what an amazing discussion! DebbieY, Deborah, NOvary and Marythefifth - I’m with you. And, it seems, just about everyone else here. It’s so nice to see an adult discussion of these things and even nicer to know that my own complicated feelings on this issue are shared by some great people. I can always use a little validation of my own!
June 30th, 2006 at 8:01 am
I logged in this morning and LOVE the discussion. Is this a friendly APC? That angry adoption blog sure did touch a nerve with me, and I appreciate your input. I have experience with the Happy and the Angry adoptee myself. My sister is adopted, and my husband’s sister is adopted. My husband’s sister is an angry adoptee and has reacted very badly to our decision to adopt. She is a black adopted child raised from birth in a jewish family. My sister is sort-of transracial as well. She is mexican, pretty-heavily indian and we are hispanic, although much whiter. (Anglos may not notice the difference, but to hispanics it’s significant). She is a happy adoptee. My husband and I have talked much and tried to analyze the difference.
Part of the difference in results, we believe, has to do with parenting styles. His parents spent an enourmous amount of energy Validating her feelings (very natural) of exclusion and apartness. Not only did they validate them, but they excused each and every poor behaviour of hers because- poor thing, she’s adopted and different, and there is prejudice against her. Always the fault was someone else’s and her poor behaviour was a natural response. The result of all this understanding is not only an angry adoptee, but pretty much a parasite. At the age of 30 she is still living off her parents, too much of a victim to finish school and get a job, and her biggest complaint is that they only give her a used car while she would like a new one to drive around. Her parents have never held her to the same standards that they held their two bio children. My husband and I think that too much validating of a transracial adoptees natural feelings of being different may be ultimately damaging. So that angy adoptee blog did hit a nerve, as did comments that we couldn’t judge him as wrong. If my SIL was the author of that blog, her parents would be terribly sympathetic and would agree that it was a natural response to her ordeal. But that would just be one in a long list of acceptance of poor behaviour, which leads to more and more poor behaviour.
Ok, I’m off the soapbox. Thanks for your even-tempered responses!
June 30th, 2006 at 8:05 am
Did anyone else catch in Brians footnotes a quote he used? The quote was supposedly from Josh Zhong, a director from a Large China only agency (My agency). I wonder if Josh knows about this. He quoted Josh as saying that 60-80% of children in the SWI’s were SN. I am curious if Josh really said this. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. Just curious!
June 30th, 2006 at 8:34 am
3tsmom - I’d be interested in knowing whether Josh said that as well, maybe you could email him and let him know he was quoted and ask him if he knew about it?
As for the “validating” discussion, wow, lots of food for thought.
I already talk to my daughter about how she gets to choose how she feels about something. She can sit and be sad or she can decide to get up and do something fun, it’s entirely up to her, and just as I can’t go to the bathroom for her, I can’t make her happy. She is the only one who can decide to be happy. Or not.
Having said that, I never invalidate her feelings. Ever. No matter how trivial I think they may be. I may not validate them, but I will not invalidate them. And in some cases, not invalidating them means I’m kind of validating them. Right?
What I’ve tried to do is give her tools and skills to deal with feelings and emotions. Whether she’s upset because a toy is broken or because she wants to go get her little sister NOW or because she overstepped a boundary and can’t use her computer for a few days… I listen to how she feels and I try to ask the right questions so that she can figure out how to handle her own emotions.
It’s true that lots of kids have tough things they have to deal with. Some are abused, some have health issues that keep them in and out of hospitals, the list is endless. But that doesn’t make the pain that adoptees feel hurt any less. Yes, it’s a fact of life that you deal with it and move on, but first they have to deal with it, and trivializing their feelings while they are dealing with it won’t help, IMO.
My first encounter with the ravings of an “abductee” left me feeling that I’d been kicked in the gut. I walked away from it, downplaying it as much as I could. Then a year or so later I joined a yahoogroup that is created specifically for adult adoptees to talk and a-parents to listen. Not to respond, just to listen. And I listened, and I talked to people who I respect and I worked through a lot of my feelings. And then I unsubscribed from the list.
I will not invalidate their feelings. And I respect that they are pretty ticked off at circumstances that they had no control over that happened when they were babies or toddlers or small children. And I thank them for sharing their views, as painful as they may be for me to read. I was on the list a long time, and I felt I learned a lot from them. And then it was time for me to leave that energy.
I think that it’s important for me to understand how they feel so that I can try my darndest to not raise a child who feels that way.
I don’t get to decide whether my daughter is lucky for being adopted to America. She does. I don’t get to decide whether she will feel that she was cheated by being ripped from her birth country. She does. It’s not about me, it’s about her, and she gets to decide how she feels.
I can talk to her about those feelings and I can ask questions to help her figure out how she feels, but she has to figure out how she feels on her own. Just like I can’t go to the bathroom for her, I can’t tell her how she feels about things, either.
I hope that my daughters’ adoptions are mutually beneficial. We needed kids and they needed parents. It sounds so simple. And sometimes it is. But sometimes it isn’t.
I realize that many kids detest culture camp while they are going. I realize that many kids don’t want to take Chinese (or Korean, or whatever). But the big thing is to help them deal with all of the identity crap that everyone goes through in their twenties. We all have to figure out who we are once we leave our parents’ home. Usually in the college days, but sometimes it feeds into the late twenties as well. Once our kids are no longer seen with us, once they are no longer “white by association”, that’s when much of the real identity stuff happens (or so I’m told). We have to give them a solid foundation so that they can get through this time period with the least amount of angst possible. We in this case meaning my husband and I. I’m not making any assumptions about what you must do.
I don’t know what my daughter’s life would have been like had she not been adopted. Maybe she’d have gone to a foster family and lived with them until she was grown. Maybe she would have remained in the orphanage. Most likely she’d have been adopted by another family - either American or Canadian or maybe Dutch. I don’t know that her life is better with me than it would have been in some of those other cases. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. But we both got the luck of the draw, and now we are family. Forever.
I wonder if the children who will be close to Daisy’s age will wonder what life would have been like had they been adopted by Meg Ryan.
One thing is for sure, I hope I never tell her that her life could have been worse. I know I will probably think it when she’s 15 years old and accusing me of adopting her so I’d have a maid and telling me she wouldn’t have to load the dishwasher if she was still in the orphanage…. I know I’ll be tempted to point out there probably isn’t a dishwasher and she’d be washing them by hand. But I hope I hold my tongue and don’t allow her to bait me. And I know she will. As a teenager, it will be her job to try to push my buttons and push the boundaries. And it will be my job to keep moving the buttons around so she can’t push them, and to make sure the boundaries hold strong. The important thing in the dishwasher scenario will be to either not respond or to just repeat that it needs to be unloaded. And then later, maybe that night or the next evening, we can talk about it in a relaxed fashion.. maybe I can tell her it’s perfectly normal to wonder what her life might have been like if she hadn’t joined our family, maybe talk to her about how it could have been better and how it could have been worse - but she will get to lead the conversation. The important thing would be to have a conversation about it since she brought it up, but not to have that conversation when she is trying to get out of unloading the dishwasher. Being adopted isn’t an excuse for anything, but we still need to talk about her feelings.
My intention is to raise strong, happy, secure, smart, women who see life as an adventure to be lived and enjoyed. I will try to make Chinese culture as much a part of our family as I can without being silly about it. I will attend language classes with them so we can learn together. I will be honest that the most I can ever do is show her the American version of Chinese culture, and I hope that is enough.
I will not constantly talk about adoption issues or about culture. I will bring it up when it feels like I should, otherwise I will let them bring it up and then I will listen and ask questions and answer questions as best I can. And be honest when I don’t have an answer.
I want them to be comfortable in their skin. I want them to have a strong sense of identity - whatever they decide that identity is.
June 30th, 2006 at 9:03 am
First time poster. Love RQ. We are still paperchasing.
regarding 3tsmom post about Josh Zhong’s stating that 60-80% of the children in China’s orphanages are special needs.
I am with his agency and recently read his article on how many orphan children their are in China. In it he states “More than 50% of children under orphanage care
are children with special medical needs.” His article is available for anyone to read on their website.
June 30th, 2006 at 9:54 am
I have just spent about an hour reading through this discussion and am so impressed with the way you all have been able to express opinions without insulting each other. You all are great or soon-to-be great parents. It is great that we all have different experiences that we can learn from. I appreciate Biedronka and Debbie Y. sharing from their unique backgrounds since I came from such a “normal” American family. I have a 13 yo bio son who can be angry and sullen and I could see him turning into someone like that angry blogger if it isn’t handled correctly despite him being raised in a loving, non-abusive biological family in the country of his birth. I do believe my 2 yo daughter from China is better off being in her loving home with parents and 2 siblings that adore her than tied in a bamboo chair like I saw at her SWI, but I am sad for her that she was abandoned and didn’t get to stay in her birth country with her bio parents, but that wasn’t my choice for her. She was abandoned and available for adoption so if she one day thinks we’re abducters I would have to say that I’m sorry that she feels that way, but there is no basis in the truth for saying she was abducted. I do feel uncomfortable when people tell me how lucky she is though because I don’t want her to feel grateful about how she came into our family like the other poster said. She may not feel lucky to have been abandoned and taken away from her birth country, but I hope she feels lucky to have a family that adores her.
almost DTC for adoption #2
June 30th, 2006 at 10:34 am
I believe there is a bit of context behind the discussion about the Korean “abductees” that hasn’t been discussed here yet. From what I have read, it is my understanding that most of the people who post on the “abductees” site are adults, primarily from Korea, and that most of them were adopted during a time when adoptive parents were actively counseled by social workers and other professionals NOT to acknowledge the national, cultural and racial backgrounds of their children and to assimilate them into (mostly) white American culture as thoroughly as possible. This was considered the right thing to do at the time, just as it was once considered preferable not to reveal to a child ever that she/he was adopted. The anger that you read on the “abductees” site is a result of feeling that one’s identity was built on a lie, that one’s history and national/cultural background are considered inferior and shameful, and that one’s parents did not prepare them adequately to live in a society where skin color and facial features unfortunately still influence one’s access to respect and opportunity. I remember reading one account from a Korean adoptee about the first time she looked in a mirror and realized that she wasn’t white like her parents. How confusing must that have been for a child who was never told about her heritage or even the circumstances surrounding the way she joined the family? In that context, even if we disagree with the way it is expressed, that anger seems very understandable to me.
Fortunately, we have the opportunity to learn from past experience and hopefully not make the same mistakes. It seems to me that most adoptive parents of Chinese children want to acknowledge and honor their daughters’ heritage, want them to be proud of that heritage and their adoptive status, and want to work with them to resolve the inevitable identity crises that will arise at some point in their lives around the issues of being abandoned and being in many cases physically very different from their parents. They may rebel against culture camps and Saturday Mandarin lessons at some point, but at least they will have some small foundation to build on and, more importantly, the knowledge that their parents value and respect their origins.
Gordon
June 30th, 2006 at 11:07 am
RQ, you said exactly what I was trying to say, only a million times better. You nailed it perfectly.
June 30th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Wow - best discussion I’ve seen in a long time!!! I really appreciate all the posts and agree with pretty much everything. As someone said, there have been different angles and nuances presented and I like that. I really am impressed with the eloquence in which some of you have spoken/written.
June 30th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Okay this is going to sound like a stupid question, but I really would like to know what you guys mean by ‘validating or not validating’ feelings. Does that mean you choose to ignore certain feelings or does that mean that you choose not to have lengthy discussions?
This has been a wonderful discussion. I have read some of the “abductees” blogs and have been incredibly disheartened by them. Some of them terrify me. This discussion has really helped me with this issue. APC has usually ripped people apart for wanting to know why these adoptees feel the way they do.
June 30th, 2006 at 11:37 am
I’ve so enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts on this issue this morning. I’ve thought a lot about the “gratitude” issue over the past nearly twelve months that we’ve been waiting for our referral and come to the conclusion that I don’t really expect gratitude from any of our children (we have two bio daughters) for providing a loving and supportive home where we meet their physical and emotional needs to the best of our abilities. I believe it is our responsibility to do so because we gave birth and/or adopted them. As another poster mentioned, I do expect gratitude for the new bike or the fun vacation trip - but the love and support are a given. I have struggled greatly with the issue of exposing our new daughter to Chinese culture because we live in a very “white” area and in a small town to boot. I believe it is essential, however, to expose her to Chinese culture and successful Asian role models and we will do the best we can given our circumstances. She may not always enjoy culture camp, etc., but we will insist that she go anyway. When I was growing up, my parents forced me to take swimming lessons for years and years because we live 15 miles from a lake and they knew that once I reached teenage years I’d be going to the beach with my friends. Swimming well was a tool they believed I needed. Knowledge about Chinese culture is a tool our children will need when they leave our homes and venture into the adult world. Finally, I’ve gotten a kick out of the discussion about whether or not to validate all children’s feeling (I’m a school psychologist). It reminds me of that song from the 80’s or 90’s with the line “I’m gonna take my inner child and kick his little @ss” (I may have quoted that wrong). We do have a bit of a tendency in our culture to wallow. A leading lecturer in the school psychology field talks about “admiring the problem” rather than finding a constructive solution. Yeah, we can go on and on and on about how much it stinks that our children were abandoned by their birth families and had to leave their culture and grow up with a family of another race. But apparently that is the card they were dealt. How can we make the experience the best it can be and help them to grow up to be well-adjusted, relatively happy, productive members of society despite it all? I don’t think there is one answer to that question and I believe that the vast majority of us will do a pretty good job, despite our different philosophies and parenting styles. Thanks to all for the food for thought!
June 30th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Rumor Queen,
First time poster here (looong time reader!), I had to comment on your post-it left me very choked up. Your daughter(s) are so lucky to have a mom who is so undertanding, repectful and devoted.
I hope I can learn from all that everyone has shared-thanks!
June 30th, 2006 at 11:46 am
Lovemygirls -
I just love the expression - admiring the problem - such a great way of characterizing so much of what I see in daily life (unfortunately including my actions some days). Think I will name it what it is next time I see or do it.
June 30th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
“firegirl” asked, “What I’d really like to know is what you guys mean by validating or not validating feelings. Does that mean you choose to ignore certain feelings, or does that mean that you choose to not have lengthy discussions.?”
Neither. Of course we listen to our children - lovingly and attentively. We listen to everything and anything our children have to say - regardless of the topic.
But “lovemygirls” hit the nail on the head with the expression “admiring the problem”. I am going to write that one down.
And to reiterate what I’ve already said, we do tell our children “coulda been worse”, and make no apologies for doing so. The fact of the matter is, lots of things are worse than being abandoned and subsequently adopted by white people and removed from one’s birth country.
The children in “this” family are going to have that fact pointed out to them - they can then choose to do what they will with that fact - but far be it from me to simply allow them to believe every “feeling” they ever have about it is good, or beneficial to their overall life.
Lots of times I don’t “feel” like getting up each day, putting one foot in front of the other, and doing what is necessary. Too bad. I get up and do it anyway.
Other times I “feel” like lamenting my childhood, my losses, my sorrows. But I don’t permit myself to. Why? And waste today? Tomorrow? The rest of my life?
We are in control of our thoughts. We do not have to be a “victim” of our circumstances. Nor do our children - and that’s what this one family is endeavouring to teach their children here in our little corner of Canada.
My brother committed suicide 9 years ago. He spent his entire adult life dwelling on our childhood, the wrongs perpetrated against us (and there were many). His “feelings” consumed him. And he’d had years of people listening to him, “validating” his feelings…from family members, to psychologists, to psychiatrists. In the end, he simply chose to remain a victim - and give in to his “feelings”.
His legacy? He left his daughter, his beautiful, wonderful daughter - a victim. A victim of what could be construed as the ultimate abandonment. A victim of having a father who, according to her own words, “did not love me enough to live for me”. And prior to that, a victim of her own mother who’d abandoned her 5 years prior - when she was 13.
So, did those terrible things occur? Yep, they did. And there’s no changing any of it.
Now she has a choice. A choice to spend her life thinking about how wronged she was, how selfish her parents were, or a choice to look at her circumstances and say “coulda been worse”. And it could have been. There’s almost always a worse-case scenario. Few things are as bad as they could have been. And that’s what I tell her. What I will tell her until the day I die - if need be. And when I tell her “It could have been worse”, I wrap my arms around her and tell her, “And it was bad enough”.
And as someone else has already said, we will all parent differently. I do not in any way find fault with another parent for the choices they make with their children, even if they heartily disagree with what I do. We are not cookie-cutter people. We are individuals - shaped and shaded by our own life experiences. And our children will benefit from what we bring to them - one way or the other.
June 30th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
The most obvious way I validate my daughter’s feelings are when I say something like “yes, that was very scary, wasn’t it?”, or “yes, it is very sad, I’m sad about it too, would you like to talk about it?”
Sometimes I say something like “I can understand that you are upset, and we can talk about that after you’ve calmed down a little bit. First you have to get yourself under control”.
There have been times that she tried to pull up something from weeks ago to talk about when she was in trouble. To try to convince me she was still upset about that, and this is why she did whatever she did that she shouldn’t have done. That doesn’t work for me, and we do not talk about that at the time. I may say “yes, that was very sad/scary/upsetting, but that was two weeks ago and has nothing to do with why you chose to squirt all of the lotion out of the bottle onto the dog.”
She mostly now has gotten the hang of using her words when something is bothering her. She tells me when she is mad or angry or scared or sad. If I don’t think she should be as sad about something as she is then instead of invalidating her feelings I just ask questions: “why is this making you this sad? I’m sorry I don’t understand, but if you can help me understand why this is making you so sad then maybe I can help you figure out how to not be so sad.”
And sometimes the situation ties in with something else that she has attached together in her little head and once she explains it I “get” why she is so upset about it. Often times I just explain how the two aren’t related and then everything is okay, but if I didn’t ask then I’d never know that she was putting two unrelated things into the same category and coming to some conclusion that was indeed very upsetting.
There have been a few times it would have been so easy to just tell her she was silly for crying about that. And I’m so glad I asked why it was so upsetting instead of saying what my parents would have said to me.
June 30th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Debbie Y - Thank you so much for sharing. After I was first married and my husband and I went through some VERY hard times (infertility, financial difficulties, illness, etc.) I felt disappointment, loss at what I thought my life/marriage was going to be - a whole range of emotions and sometimes my husband would say to me, “It could always be worse” It would infuriate me because I felt that he was discounting my feelings. After nine years of marriage and all of the ups and downs that go with it - I now feel that way too. I know that this new chapter in our lives as parents is going to have ups and downs too. I just want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts and feelings!
June 30th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
This discussion was great to read. DebbieY, it made me smile to see someone else who had a really rough childhood/adulthood like I did be able to turn it around. I think being through a lot has he