New SN Procedures
I’ve talked about this before, but I have about a dozen people asking me questions about how the new SN program is going to work.
I don’t have any new information. All I know is that the agencies will no longer have the Waiting Children lists, the CCAA will put all of the children up on their site somehow. I can only assume the agencies will be responsible for screening parents and giving them the password since it would be horrible to just have the information out on the open internet.
When a family puts in a LOI it will go to the CCAA, and if there is more than one family requesting that child then it will be the CCAA deciding which family, not the agencies.
I think this sounds like a much better system. You pick your agency and then have access to all of the waiting children’s information, not just the children assigned to your agency.
My understanding is that this system is supposed begin sometime in February.
And, again, this is all I know, and I don’t think anything is set in stone yet. It sounds like the agencies are still being allowed to give the CCAA input on what they think will work and what they think won’t work.
December 28th, 2006 at 7:54 am
Maybe this is why my agency (medium size multi-country with a very good CCAA relationship) is having a delay in their new Waiting Child list. They have not received a new list since Sept. I have been emailing to ask when a new list would come and a new list was due the begining of December. Now a new list is due in January. Maybe there will be no list, just this new procedure. My agency has not said anything about this new procedure. I think I’ll ask since we were hoping to be matched this time.
December 28th, 2006 at 8:34 am
This would be a great system! Especailly if you were with a smaller agency who only receives a few children per list… This way you would have access to a lot more ages and problems. For instance my agency always seem to get a list that only includes older boys…this is fine, but my DH and I would be more open towards a younger girl… I am intersted to see how the system will work and maybe DD#2 will be chosen from there…
December 28th, 2006 at 9:04 am
I’m not sure what to think of this. To me, the biggest change would be waiting for the CCAA to select the family if more than one family applies for a child. Our large, China-only agency did not have families compete for children. They shared files with only one family at a time. Not all agencies work this way, but I really liked their approach. Our son came home in 2002.
Now matter how agencies work their WC program, at least when you file your LOI you know that you’re the only family in the running for a specific child. Given the current CCAA timelines, I don’t know how I’d handle a 3 or 4 month wait to find out whether the CCAA approved us or another family.
If the CCAA goes this route, I think I’d submit a dossier and ask that they match us with a waiting child.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:10 am
One other thing - I remember lst year a large China-only agency posted their WC list on their website right around Christmas and asked families to submit a petition if they were interested in a specific child. One child, a little girl with a minor SN, received over 100 (!) petitions! I can imagine this scenario multiplied by all the agencies that work in China.
What would happen if the CCAA received LOIs from numerous agencies for the same child? Would the families know how many other families had submitted LOIs?
I think this would be a very good system for harder-to-place kids, because the CCAA would cast a wider net than individual agencies. However, for the most “in demand” kids (infant girls with relatively minor SNs), I think that the potential for dozens of families petitioning for a child could be a big problem.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Thanks for clarifying this, RQ!!
Is it clear yet if the new rules are for SN, too??? I’m confused about that part and PRAYING that the new rules do NOT apply there!!
His,
Mrs. U
LID 9-12-05- NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.makingahouseahome.blogspot.com
and coming soon…
http://www.youbelong.net/upchurchfamily
December 28th, 2006 at 9:26 am
uumom,
You’re right, having the WC list out for everybody to see would have some negatives too. Because with everybody who wants to adopt SN looking at that list, you could have 100 families wanting the same child. Who knows how long it would take for the CCAA to choose a family and get a PA out? I think that they are trying to give parents a quicker alternative to the 2 year+ wait with something quicker. But with a lot of familites applying for the same children, then wouldn’t it slow it down? At first I thought this new system would be great…now I am wondering if it will be more of a nightmare then NSN? Also, I have a question for uumom, if you submit a dossier and request a SN child, or one that is a WC, do you get an expediated referral?
December 28th, 2006 at 9:27 am
Yeah, this concerns me too. Our agency gets a list, posts it on their website, and then families queu up to review the child. Some children only get one family wanting to review them, while others get many. This wasn’t a big deal until wait times skyrocketed. Now, when the list comes out it is almost like a competition. This new system sounds the same except on a much larger scale. I guess if they put ALL of their WC up, and children are always being added, it might be ok. But, I agree with uumom. I can’t imagine waiting months to hear about a specific child only to be turned down. Maybe there will be a way for the agencies to indicate (in real time) on the website that a child is being reviewed by a family. I think there are ways to make this a really good program. Let’s hope they find a way to make it so.
clem
lid 09feb06
December 28th, 2006 at 9:27 am
Yes, the new rules are for the Special Needs program as well. In fact, there are people out there who are already having their LOI denied due to these rules, so for the SN process it would seem that these rules go into effect immediately. If you already have PA or TA or whatever then you are fine, but for a new LOI, people are being turned down for things like less than $80,000 in net worth or several of the medical issues.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:27 am
On my post about the agency with over 100 petitions, it should read *last* year, not lst year. Still, I can see this happening under the new system, especially as the waits grow, and grow, and grow…
December 28th, 2006 at 9:28 am
theups,
I believe that the rules did apply to SN, except the age. With NSN you have to be 50 or under (according to the new rules) but with SN you can be 55 and under.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:35 am
uumom,
If your agency (just 1 agency!) had 100 people request that one little girl….oh, I don’t even want to think about what could happen with everybody on 1 list. But, as someone already mentioned… with a lot more children and with new kids probably being placed on it all the time, maybe it wouldn’t be a problem. I just wonder what the wait time would be if a lot of people do request the same child… We’ll have to see how they are going to handle this new system.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Isn’t the intention of the CCAA to consider the needs of the child above all else? Then I think they have hit a genius idea here. A SN child’s picture won’t go from one family to the next waiting for the right match. If a few parents have to wait to see if they are selected, this is a minor thing compared to the time these children sit waiting for their forever family. I’m happy at the prospect of quicker matches for any waiting child.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:39 am
Too many agencies were using the WC program as a way to get more clients. Many agencies started accepting people not yet with an agency over those already signed up with them, using the reasoning that they wanted people who were loyal to the SN program from the beginning instead of those switching midstream.
This means that those agencies get a lot of new clients with every new WC list. The only time someone already with their agency is “chosen” for a child is if no one else puts in a LOI for the child.
The really sad part about this is that families who could get to China quickly to get the child and bring him or her home for much needed surgery never get a chance. Instead, families who haven’t even started paperchasing are chosen and in some cases it’s a year or more later before they get to China to pick the child up. Six to eight months to get their dossier together plus time waiting for TA - it’s just sad that those children have to wait that extra six or eight months. I’m aware of one family that took over a year to get their dossier together, and this child was badly in need of surgery.
I realize that not all agencies were doing this, but I am very glad to see the CCAA putting a stop to it.
With the new system people can choose the agency they want to use and aren’t forced to use the agency that the child they’ve fallen for happened to be assigned to.
I do not know what criteria the CCAA will use for choosing who gets a child when a lot of people submit a LOI for the same child. I would hope it would be some combination of proximity to a medical facility that specializes in the special need, parents familiarity with the special need, etc.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:46 am
We switched from LID 10/27/05 to SN with an LOI 5/6/06 home 8/2/06.
I think if CCAA does it this way it will be a nightmare for the parents to be. I think boys will have less of a chance for adoption and a few cute young girls will have at least 90% + of the LOIs. Think how long it could take for the parents and the kids, submit an LOI get turned down, submit another get turned down etc. I could take years to get a child.
December 28th, 2006 at 9:55 am
The young female babies with minor SN are going to get adopted no matter how the CCAA does it.
This process is more likely to get the older kids, the boys, and the children with more severe special needs adopted. And that is a wonderful thing, in my book.
December 28th, 2006 at 10:06 am
I hope that the new process does bring more harder to place kids home.
But for that to happen, families must be open to adopt these children in the first place - *and* these families must meet the CCAA’s new guidelines. As RQ has shared in other posts, the CCAA is already tightening up on their requirements for the SN program.
Put these factors together, and I am not sure how it’s going to play out.
I do think that the CCAA is absolutely right in stopping the current practice among some agencies of using waiting kids are a revenue production tool. Of course, when it boils down to it adoption is a business - a BIG business - and waiting kids are just another income stream. Just becuase an agency is a 501C3 doesn’t mean they’re not making a whole lot of money.
Sigh…off my soapbox now. Thanks RQ!
December 28th, 2006 at 10:12 am
Hi,
Basically I think this is a good thing for the reasons stated by RQ and UUMOM…although I agree that there will be kinks to work out and the possible scenario of 100s competing for one baby girl is scary! BUT, I don’t like the current system of shopping around for your one child and the way the agencies play this up for revenue…we’ll just have to see how it works out.
Someone asked if you are expedited if you have CCAA match you with the child, and the answer is a resounding YES! We were LID 7/21/05, switched to SN in Sept. by sending a new LOI and Hs update, and got Kathryn’s referral 12/8/06…our original LID group traveled in Fall 2006, so you can see just how expedited we were!
This time for DD#2, we did it the traditional WC program way. We are with one of those agencies that gets only a few at a time, but we hit the jackpot. However, our agency is a great example of an agency that would benefit by this new system by having access to many more kids!
:-)
Steph
December 28th, 2006 at 10:12 am
RQ,
The post about the agencies using the WC list to get more clients saddens me to no end. It also makes me so happy that we chose the agency we did. Our agency makes current clients the priority and shows files to one family at a time. I wish that all agencies could be so ethical.
It is so much a business to some where to others it is a calling. Our agency donates significant amounts to Chinas programs right from their bottom line and also administers charity donations on clients behalf with no administrative fees for the agency. All client donations are 100% donated to the programs with no fee by my agency. I was truly amazed when I heard this.
For once I have made a good decision in my choice of who to work with. I can only imagine the pain of working with an aency that you cannot trust. This process is upside down and uncertain enough already without having to deal with those kinds of issues that undermine your faith in your agency.
December 28th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Ooops, I meant we got the referral 12/8/05, not 12/8/06…that wouldn’t be expedited at all, LOL! Gotta proof my posts!
:-)
Steph
December 28th, 2006 at 10:17 am
My agency has not heard anything concrete about the startup of the on-line SN program. They are still waiting for a new WC list.
December 28th, 2006 at 10:23 am
Also wanted to say, we were lucky in our agency also, as Anxiously Waiting said. They only get a few profiles at a time, but they request based on client preferences, and only give the file to one family at a time…I can’t even imagine petitioning for a child only to be turned down. Ugh!! Yes, I’m interested to see how CCAA will avoid that happening with those minor SN baby girls!
:-)
Steph
Day 55 of TA Wait for DD#2 (Sarah)
December 28th, 2006 at 10:42 am
uumom, I agree. This will bring more hard to place kids home.
There is a TV program about a set of parents, both with dwarfism, who adopted an older girl from Russia. She also was a dwarf and had autism. Definately a hard to place child, but for this family the dwarfism was a way of life and only the autism was a special need.
I met a family whose bio oldest child had a cleft palate. They chose a SN girl from China with the same thing.
For many families, what others would consider a SN is just part of their life. But only when the children are known about can they be adopted.
December 28th, 2006 at 11:13 am
RQ Pet Peeve Number One: People who quote something as fact when I am clear that it is not. Please read the last paragraph of this post:
And, again, this is all I know, and I don’t think anything is set in stone yet. It sounds like the agencies are still being allowed to give the CCAA input on what they think will work and what they think won’t work.
For the person who just quoted this as fact on another list, would you mind posting that this is preliminary information coming out with nothing set in stone yet?
December 28th, 2006 at 11:33 am
Hi all
I don’t think that the SN program will work that way. The pas few months there have been some changes and some agencies are already working that way. They recieve the files of SN kids by e mail and LOI are send back by e mail. This way it will speed up. we are told that the lists are going to disappear and that agencies will recieve SN files only my e mail , that could be one per week, per months etc. Those files will be in english so they don’t have to be translated.
In your papers you have to say that you really want to adopt a SN child, so changing from NSN to SN after DTC will not be possible if that’s not in your documents.
Just my 2 cents
December 28th, 2006 at 11:49 am
I am just curious how RQ and others think a CCAA listing will help hard to place children. Already many agencies offer no fee for hard to place children and yet they still have to send the files back without a placement. We have all seen children show up on list after list and still not be placed.
How would CCAA handling the files change this?
I am just wanting to understand your thought process.
Thanks
December 28th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Once someone is with an agency they usually do not look at the lists from other agencies. They look at their own agency’s list, knowing that if you find a child on another list that it is next to impossible to switch to another agency without starting over.
For someone at a mid sized agency, that means they are going to see maybe 70 to 100 children a year.
However, if suddenly all waiting children became available to them, they might be able to see a thousand children a year.
Big difference. And a much better chance of them finding their own perfect match.
I realize that some families look at files from all agencies before signing up with an agency. And I realize that some people are willing to go to switch agencies and lose all of the fees already paid to their original agency. But most people are not interested in doing that. Most people sign up to the NSN program and then while they are waiting they start to talk about the prospect of SN, and then they learn that unless they want to basically start over with another agency that they are stuck with the children on their own agency’s list.
December 28th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
I don’t believe that all potiential adoptive parents would have access to a photolisting site since that would contravene the Hague Convention. Canadian agencies haven’t been able to photolist since the Hague came into rule here, and since China is working to be more Hague compliant I just can’t see it. As someone mentioned, it’s more likely that agencies will receive their new “lists” electronically….some agencies have been piloting electronic transmission of information already, presumably to prepare for the new way of dealing with waiting child lists. I do think that the changes will mean that agencies can send in information about the needs requested by families and perhaps receive a more finely tuned list than in the past. Think about it, the CCAA wants to reduce their workload….dealing with a competition for files (which would be a North American approach, anyway!) would be needlessly time consuming.
Also, my agency has said that while the CCAA is scrutinizing WC dossiers more carefully in terms of some of the medical/financial issues (and doing the same for files going through review), they are still matching singles to WC files and will continue to do until they wouldn’t make the May cut off. What no one knows yet, is how “exceptions” may be permitted to adopt waiting children, especially for those who might be considered more difficult to place.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
I know with our agency, it was very competitive, and people would actually post rather personal feelings on the agencies website. The children that were in high demand were young, pretty girls with only very minor special needs. The agency put in place new regulations when dealing with placement of special needs children because of the change in demand. They chose who they thought would be the best possible parents. Feelings were hurt and people were angry. We wanted a boy, he was 4 and he wasn’t one of the ’sweethearts’ in demand, which we are so very grateful for. We were lucky to be able to adopt him. He is a total joy. I am not sure what to think of the new CCAA idea, I will wait and see to see how it is presented before I make judgement. However, ultimately, it is their right to do whatever they feel is in the best interest of their children. I would love another son.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
I wouldn’t worry about this as a possibility right now. Our agency is one of two who piloted the new WC program this past year. It would not make sense to spend all year working on a new program only to yank it and do something completely different.
I agree with a few others that there is no way the CCAA would allow parents to have a password to a restricted area to view children and profiles. That makes no sense as well.
We were LID 9/29/05 but switched to SN in January 06. We have been home since early June with our daughter. Having only our agency’s list to work with did not cause a problem for us. Others that I know did switch agencies midstream or wait to choose an agency once finding their child.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Hi!
The CCAA doesn’t like the photolistings at all, they only think it is OK if the photos are password protected. That’s why I don’t think they would put out photos. They have even criticized that people put out their referral pictures on the internet. I’m quite sure the WC program won’t work like RQ has described it (and as she pointed out above she never said it was a fact).
My agency has described a procedure that is similar to the one we already have, but will be faster. They will still have their own list, but only on the internet. Then they will be able to follow exactly how far the procedure has gone. Probably things like when dossiers have arrived, when they have been read, when they have been approved (or not) and so on (my guessing, not their word). And everything is supposed to happen a lot quicker than it has been.
Mizzy, not being able to switch from nsn to sn sounds like a very bad idea, I hope it’s not true. I must ask my agency. That will decrease the number of families interested in sn children I think. I think that for many people it feels much too uncertain to let the CCAA match you for an sn child. Since it might involve some more work and costs than adopting an nsn child I think people want to be in control. I think lots of people who never considered an sn child, and who already had sent an nsn file to China, fell in love with their child when they saw him/her on a list, and applied.
I disagree that the kind of program described here would benefit the children. First, I don’t think it’s ethical to compete for them. Second, letting so many people view the children makes me feel very bad too. They are so exposed. How would they feel when they get older and learn that their picture was posted on the internet to be viewed by hundreds, even thousands of people, some of them being picked by lots, some of them only by a few or one? Makes me shudder. Third, I think the number of families willing to send a LOI for a kid would rapidly decrease while people get turned down. You just can’t take that too many times. Fourth, the system would increase the sn-work very much for the CCAA and I don’t think they want that.
So, I hope the process will be more like my agency described it to me. I’m calling them next week and I’ll post here or send RQ the information if they can tell me anything.
December 28th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
A couple of points:
* I did specify that the list will have to be password protected somehow, as I can’t see the CCAA putting a list out for the general public to see. What I’ve seen is that agencies will in some way be in charge of handing out passwords, so they will still be in charge of the initial screening.
* No one has said (to my knowledge) whether or not the list will have pictures, only that the list of children will be available to all agencies at once and that agencies will no longer have their own exclusive list of children.
* The original pilot program was the first phase of whatever the final program will be. I believe the important part of that program was to get the communication aspect of doing everything online over the internet worked out.
* The very minor special needs children are now going to be part of that “in between” group who will be matched by the CCAA, so they aren’t going to be on lists anymore, anyway.
* I have not heard anything about how the CCAA may choose to handle multiple people sending an LOI for the same child. I agree this sounds like more work for them, doing something the agencies are now doing. However, they are apparently not pleased with the way at least some of the agencies have been handling it, so they are apparently going to do it themselves.
* The Hague stuff does come into play with some of this, though I am unclear about the specifics of how it comes into play.
* Again, I do not believe the CCAA has made a final decision on how all of this is going to work. It sounds to me like ideas are still being floated back and forth, but that they are clear that they do not want agencies to continue with their individual lists as has been done in the past.
December 28th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
RQ:
“* I did specify that the list will have to be password protected somehow, as I can’t see the CCAA putting a list out for the general public to see.”
Sorry if I was unclear, I know the above. I wrote the password thing just to give an example of what they think about photo listings. And still, there is no need for “the general public” here to gather lots of people, in my oppinion much too many, to view the children.
“* No one has said (to my knowledge) whether or not the list will have pictures”
Interesting thought! A list without pictures would be a lot better I think.
I guess it’s true they haven’t decided exactly how the procedure will be yet. I guess it’s also possible they’ll make changes if things don’t turn out the way they like them.
December 28th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
In Holland we do not have photolisting at all.
We are all machted with a child by our agency. And almost always after we are DTC. This is the way the SN program works in Holland and almost never childrens files are returned unmatched to the CCAA.
We have more waiting parents than waiting children
December 28th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Is Holland Hague compliant? I’m pretty sure that Hague compliant countries are not allowed to photolist or otherwise publically share information for international adoptions. Ever. Canadian processes work very similarly to Hollands and similarly no files are typically returned to China. There are parents lining up to be able to be matched, as well. Parents must have their dossiers ready (or very close to it) to be matched, and need to be clear from the start about the needs/age range etc. they’ll consider. Waiting Children don’t wait all that long to meet their families, because of this rule, whereas I’ve heard of situations in other countries where children have waited a long time while parents reviewed, then started their dossier. Just doesn’t happen here—and families need to make up their minds pretty quickly, though are allowed to have the file reviewed by medical professionals etc. From my perspective (as a WC parent) it seems really fair, and we also have few few disruptions. You don’t know if your child will happen to be “cute” or not—so being photogenic has no real advantage. (Of course, I believe my child is adorable!) The Hague makes it clear that countries are not to “advertise” children publically because IA is supposed to be in the interest of the child, not to help find “suitable children” for waiting families in other countries, so with China as a new Hague country and the US soon to be, I’m fairly doubtful anything would be available to adoptive parents, in terms of being able to look at listings, even with password protection. I suspect that the CCAA will just get more rigorous with agencies around processes they don’t particularly like (such as competing for children, photolistings posted on the Internet, etc.). But just my two Yuan….guess we’ll find out soon.
December 28th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
I have real reservations about the new system. I just completed my adoption, and my daughter was on the same list as the child that received 100+ petitions to adopt her. Granted, in the not too distant future, people like me — single — probably won’t get to adopt from China, but I can honestly write that I felt the pressure of competing with all the others who had also petitioned for my baby, and I knew that in comparison to a couple, I wouldn’t look as good a choice.
I honestly felt there was little chance I would be successful, so I can empathize with people who petition for a baby but only just barely meet the requirements/qualifications. I guess it makes me sad to think that this system creates a hierarchy of parents — some will obviously look better on paper than others and those others will have little chance of competing successfully. And while this has always been true to an extent, in the past, an individual was competing primarily with people somehow connected to an agency. I realize that there may have been a number of people “trolling” the lists looking for a baby — I still think there would be fewer applying for a baby on one agency’s list than all applying for a child from one central list.
December 29th, 2006 at 12:55 am
When we first saw our son in June of last year, we saw his photograph, medical information. The next day, we received updated photographs and information on him from the CWI. The following day, a volunteer at the CWI emailed new photographs of him to our agency, and also a more recent medical report and progress report. We considered ourselves very very lucky. We were given a password, and were told that there were several people interested in him, but nothing definite. We petitioned for him, and were extremely lucky to be able to adopt him. This was all before our agency changed their WC applications and procedures. I do know that parents who are looking for a specific child patrol all the agencies websites for WC because they will announce that they have found their ‘Anna’
(or whatever name they are planning to call their baby) on our agencies message forum.
They signed up with them, but then switched to a different agency who had a different system when it came to their WC. I was quite amazed at how many families petition for the children. There was one little girl, gorgeous, she was a year (maybe a little older), she had a very minor sn and apparently they were swamped with petitions for her. Some women actually appeared to be gloating when they were chosen as the parents of the most in demand children. I am not sure what to make of this type of competition, but for me, it makes the children more like trophies, which is very disturbing. I haven’t been on that forum for a while, the last time I was there, things were very heated with regards to the way parents were selected and some families were very despondent when they got the news that they were not chosen. It made me feel very uncomfortable. Very sad.
December 29th, 2006 at 4:06 am
Canuckmama , yes Holland is Hague compliant. It seems to me that the SN program in Canada is almost the same as it is in Holland.
December 29th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
I’m pretty nervous about the new SN rules, as we are not yet DTC (but I got our I797C today! yippee!) and because of BMI issue, we will not qualify for China after 5/1. My “small, New England, China-only agency with fabulous reputation” told me today that I need not worry - we will be fine. Our dossier, hs are all ready for translation/cert/authentication and we can expect to be DTC by mid-end Jan 07. I called them today to discuss what RQ posted about the new regs already affecting those who are not yet PA/TA on SN’s adoptions. Again, she (the director) assured me we are “just fine”. They received 6 WC files today and she said, based on how quickly these files are LOI’d, they WILL get more soon. Hmmm… it’s hard to disbelieve her when she and the agency have such a great rep, she genuinely cares for the kids, plus she’s a Chinese national and took down all of the meeting notes in native Chinese. I just WISH i could be 100% sure. The kicker to this is that I am the one who has the hi BMI, but I had gastric bypass surgery in Aug and have already lost 52lbs. I guess we could file an LOI (when we are finally presented with a WC file) with an updated medical? oye vay - I don’t know whether to stay the course or jump ship onto a slow boat to Viet Nam or Guatemala…