New Applicants
As agencies are starting to ask questions of the CCAA about new applicants we are starting to get an idea of what the CCAA is going to approve and what they are not going to approve.
It seems that they are going to be very strict. So far I’ve seen:
- A family with a minor run-in with the law 22 years ago (sounds like a bar fight) and nothing since who has been turned down.
- Several reports of people with minor seizure issues who have been turned down.
- Reports of people who have had cancer who are being told to wait until they have a doctor saying they have been clear for five years before they submit their application to the CCAA.
Remember, these are agencies saying “this person is applying to us right now, will they be able to adopt under the new rules”. This is for those putting an application in with an agency right now. We are told this is not going to affect those logged in prior to May 1st.
So far I’m hearing from people who have been turned down but not from people with some questionable issue who have been told they are okay. I would be interested in hearing from people who have a minor issue who have been told that they can apply.
We are not here today to discuss how we feel about the CCAA’s new rules. We’ve done that many times and I’d rather not revisit that particular topic today. I think most of us agree that they aren’t fair and we don’t like them but that the CCAA is free to set the rules. What I am doing today is trying to get an idea of some of the specifics of how the new rules are going to work.
Also, it occurs to me that right now the agencies are putting forth a lot of questions about individual cases for new applicants as they try to get a handle on the new rules. This means that the CCAA is going to be spending a lot of time answering these questions. I hope this does not mean another small month.
January 18th, 2007 at 8:48 am
So, do these agencies have more of an outline than they are leading on? If the agency doesn’t think the 22 year old bar fight would make it, then they must have a clear outline as to why they believe that. Right? Otherwise, I don’t think any of us would have thought that would have been an instance to turn someone down based on the new rules we’ve seen. Scary.
January 18th, 2007 at 8:50 am
The agencies are asking the CCAA, and the CCAA is telling them yes or no. They do not have an outline yet, apparently, so they are having to ask.
January 18th, 2007 at 8:59 am
While visiting in China, the head of our agency asked whether or not people who put their dossier on hold (that is, logged in before May 1, but after May 1 put their dossier on hold for any reason, in our case, spacing of children) will have the new rules apply to them. The answer was not conclusive but our agency told us they think the new rules will not apply to us. Again, they didn’t promise us this, as no “test cases” have happened. I’m sure this doesn’t affect a lot of people, but it could affect us and we would then be in danger of losing our China adoption.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Our cousin was just turned down for net worth
January 18th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Oh no……we are already logged in (june) but dh had a dui over 20 years ago. I hope that won’t disqualify us!………Now I’m scared!
January 18th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Maybe that’s why the review room seems to be in a holding pattern on Jan? Perhaps the review room employees are fielding all these new rule questions. Any theories on whether that would involve the matching room folks? I know no one really knows, but as an April LID, I’m grasping at straws for some rhyme/reason for the Jan log jam. Ooh, another gray hair sprouted…
January 18th, 2007 at 9:43 am
I wonder if both February and March will be posted rather quickly on the site. I remember that November took sooo long, and then December followed really quickly. You would think they will post soon…. And lets hope we get some referral rumors soon (next week)……
January 18th, 2007 at 9:44 am
RQ - By “small month” do you mean not a alot of referrals? I really hope that is not the case. Our SW called yesterday to get all of our phone numbers for “The Call”. She did say that she was not 100% positive that we were in. I told that she needed to be more confident for our sake. But she wanted to be prepared just incase.
Sue
10/10/05
January 18th, 2007 at 9:48 am
thundercleese,
Since you are already logged in, you should be fine. These guidelines are for after 5/1/07.
LID 10/13/05
January 18th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Boy I hope you’re right hoosierbaby. :-)
January 18th, 2007 at 9:54 am
spiritualknitter:
We’ve been on hold since September and suddenly our agency is anxious about whether CCAA is going to let us proceed. We urgently sent our reactivation letter last week and are waiting to see if CCAA rejects us, even though we’ve been out of review for eons, because of the new rules, which would knock us out. So I’m not sure agencies are getting clear instructions about people who are on hold, even now. Our rep said they’re trying to figure out if folks who went on hold due to pregnancy (not our situation) were “Stuck.” Stuck to me translates as screwed in any language. But maybe I’m just being paranoid.
January 18th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Do any agencies think there will be exceptions in the age
requirements? For example, if the applicant meets all the
other requirements - would China consider allowing the
parents to adopt? They have always been so liberal about
age . It has been suggested to me, that it is due to their great respect for age. How about children in the 3 - 4 age range?
Just asking, please excuse if this question has been asked.
Would like thoughts on this.
Gerry
January 18th, 2007 at 10:22 am
babystepstochina,
do you mind me asking? - was your cousin just starting the process or already logged in?
January 18th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Just curious — we are about 2 inches away from being DTC — our dossier is in “authentication mode” with our agency. We don’t qualify for an after-May 1 application, because of BMI, but I have been on a weight loss program, and am now only 4 lbs away from qualifying, even under the new regs. Do you think it would be wise to send a medical addendum with a new weight with our dossier, or should we wait until we are in review and hopefully I’ll be a skinny-minny by then and send an addendum at that time?
January 18th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Just starting chinapromise, the agency would not take them due to net worth…
January 18th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Not sure if my last question posted — please forgive me if this is a duplicate. We are SOOO close — maybe a week away — from being DTC — our dossier is being authenticated and certified now, but I do not qualify under the post-May 1 regs, due to BMI. I have recenlty had weight loss surgery and am now only 4 lbs away from being OK, even under the new regs. My question is: should we send a medical addendum after I’ve lost the weight to be added to our dossier? Or do you think we should wait until we are in review in case they ask? We are applying for SN (no specific WC file yet)
January 18th, 2007 at 10:44 am
I think we are going to see a TON more rejections on this side of the ocean, and I think that is the point. If the agencies get really picky over here then China can streamline the process over there and then we will see things speed up. There will be no more “exceptions” and it will be much easier on China’s end of things to give referrals. Not good for the agencies here…many less qualified adopting families…and not great for folks who want to adopt…but like RQ said, China is setting the rules and they have every right to do that.
January 18th, 2007 at 10:46 am
FinallyChina - you should talk with your agency about that. They are the best to advice you on that kind of thing.
January 18th, 2007 at 10:48 am
I don’t know how to be any more clear about this - if you are already logged in or are about to be DTC then you are presumably fine under the old rules.
What we are talking about here are the rules for people who are just now getting started, or who will not be be able to have their paperwork in China in time for the May 1st deadline.
January 18th, 2007 at 10:53 am
A friend of a friend in our town who already had Preapproval for a waiting child was denied her PA because she had hearing issues. I’m not sure if it was total or partial deafness.
I don’t know the agency or when or if she was LID. All I know is she did have PA. I will try to find out if she was just starting the process.
January 18th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Just wanted to post that I saw at least two more agencies post that a second batch of SCLs came yesterday for SN families. I was one of the lucky families to receive SCL (On Day 56 since LOI). We expect TA to follow in 4-5 weeks.
January 18th, 2007 at 11:39 am
I contacted my large china only agency last week due to concerns about the new rules. I found out I was pregnant one month after our LID which is in Sept of 2006. I was worried about the new rule concerning no child under 12 months at time of application. They told me as long as the wait remained stable or continued to increase, we would be fine and China would not even be aware of the baby as they do not look at updated homestudies. However, if there is a speed-up and we are forced to put our file on hold (our agency requires the baby be six months at time of travel), we would be stuck. I took this to mean that they would apply the new rules to us if we were placed on hold after May 1st.
January 18th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Oh NO…a “bar fight”…I think China is getting a lot more strict than anyone already thought :(
Hang in there everyone!
LID 5/15/2006
January 18th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
kalyeesmom2b,
Congratulations!
Just curious,, Were you already LID?
Trying to get my mind wrapped around the time frames.
We’re almost ready to be DTC and sending our LOI at the same time!
January 18th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
4emily, I doubt that China looked at it as a “bar fight” but probably as an “arrest”.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
RQ, thank you so very much for all the info you give us–VERY helpful, and much appreciated. Can’t wait for you to meet your new little cutie!
January 18th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
“Bar fight” can mean many things I suppose. Its hard to say what the conviction was for. Some of those assault charges sound pretty bad. An aggravated assault charge/conviction covers a lot of ground. Plus, it was in a bar which usually involves intoxication, something else CCAA seems to be a little wary of. I don’t know. Its really hard to gauge info like this because we just have the tip of the iceberg.
Anyway, it does seem to go against what we’ve been hearing. I know of at least one very large china only that’s posted on their site that they will consider on a case by case basis anyone who has a criminal conviction that was over 15 yrs ago. As a couple with a really tiny 22 year old ghost in our closets, it is frightening. Its especially stressful due to our feb LID which is still in review.
I know that the rules are supposed to apply to only those post 5/1 LID’s, my ultra conservative agency has told me I have nothing to worry about but I’m still nervous.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
We are in the process of updating our homestudy (LID 11/22/05). Over thirty years ago my husband was taken to the University jail for outstanding parking tickets on his last day of college, paid the fine of $75 and went on his way. When we did our homestudy the first time it wasn’t an issue at all, in fact everyone laughed about it. This time however it is an issue and we had to write a letter explaining everything. Our SW told us we had to do this because of the new rules that are coming down in May.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
I’ve been told by our agency, we will not be accepted until we’ve been married for five years, years living together will no longer count. We have been living together for over five years, but just got married in April, won’t turn 30 until November(him)/December (me) of this year. We meet every other requirement, and are just going to wait out the next few years. If China closes before then (hopefully won’t) we will re-evalute what we want to do. We were kind of hoping that since we have been together for so long and my first marriage was over pretty much before it started (I was really young and stupid obviously) that we could somehow get in, but we can’t.
Thanks for all you do RQ!!
BTW: I don’t know if this is a problem, but everytime I leave a comment the anti-spam word is the same, I don’t leave comments that often, but it doesn’t seem to make sense that its the same word every time.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Yes, without giving away too many personal details the charges sound exactly like charges someone fighting in a bar would get when they are arrested. One of those things where the combined charges probably sound a lot worse than what actually happened.
Also, I am getting email from people who have been told they or someone they know are out because of things like net worth and length of marriage and age of one of the spouses. We know that those things are probably going to be absolutes. The questionable things right now are some of the medical issues and what is going to be considered minor vs major by the CCAA.
January 18th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Hello Everyone,
RQ, love the past two threads - learned a lot. Can’t wait to get started shopping. And I’m glad to be more educated about attachment.
Also, RQ, just wanted to let you know, my husband is now a fan. He will often say “what does the RQ have to say about that?” OR “ask your friends at RQ, they will know.” Cracks me up. This whole time (we are LID 10-11-05) he hasn’t really been involved too much with the yahoo groups, but now that we found you, I will find him on the computer, clicking on your site. You’re in “our favorites” list.
Moving on:
This is what our small, very conservative, multi-country agency has listed as “Agency Adoption Requirements”
“Neither spouse may have felonies or multiple misdemeanors on their police records.”
I found this interesting because it is listed under agency requirements NOT China requirements (they have a page for that too.)
January 18th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Blessed Mom of 4,
yes we were LID 3/27/06, LOI 11/22, and SCL 1/17/07
They are logging our agencies waiting child dossiers in days faster than the NSN — often even when they are submitted on the same day, so hopefully you will get a speedy WC LID.
Good Luck!
January 18th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
I find that my heart is in my stomach as I update my homestudy. I have left my job to be a full time mom and I am scared to death that they are going to deny us based on that change or any other change. Has anyone heard of anyone getting denied on a homestudy update when they have been previously approved under the past guidelines?
LID 12/5/05
January 18th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Does anyone have a clue about a DUI? Neither DH or I have one, but a friend who does is just starting the proces…. Wonder if that will pass? Thoughts anyone?
By the way, nice to visit again. It’s been a whirlwind since our trip Dec 8-23 and we have the most adorable daughter in the world :-)
January 18th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
adomom12 - as far as i know (and we are in n.c.) the h.study is simply for your SW to keep… nothing more. i was fearful too due to some minor changes we had done but she put our minds to rest… just check with your SW to feel that 100% confidence though…. i’m sure you are just fine!!!
LID 9/29/05 — where are those referral rumors??? :-)
January 18th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Adomom, I wouldn’t worry.
Unless you’re financially in trouble, I don’t think it would matter.
January 18th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
For those with questions about your particular situation I will again encourage you to talk to your agency.
As far as updates to the homestudy go, China will only see the update if your agency feels it is something they need to know about, a significant change in circumstances. I believe that a “significant change in circumstances” is defined as being a move to another house, an addition to the family, a major change in health status, and a significant change of employment. I’m sure there are more, but those immediately come to mind.
But it is completely up to your agency. They are the ones who decide whether to send any updates to China or not.
January 18th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Adomom,
I too think you don’t need to worry. As far as I understand it, the update is just seen by our consulate appointment for our country (USA, Canada etc.) not China. Unless there is something wrong like you suddenly had health issues, financial issues, etc, then China would not be notified of any of the other changes like change of job (unless of course you make not enough money at your new job), moving etc.
Ziggy
LID June6
January 18th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
The homestudy update for the New 171 only goes to USCIS. If it is not related to the 171, yoou just have to bring it with you for the consulate. During our 15 month wait from LID to referral, I changed jobs, and my wife left hers. for $150, we sent a letter form my new employer and another letter stating my wifes reasons and that was it. CCAA did not need this.
January 18th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
My only issue is that I decided to stay home full time with my five year old and the new daughter. (Thought it would be sooner but did’nt we all!) My DH makes more than the required income so I think we will be fine. Thanks for the answers.
January 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
As far as HS updates , just thought I’d chime in. We had started our HS update when we returned from our first adoption. We were then “sitting” on the updated HS until our one year from our first adoption was up so that we could submit our second application. A few months later we found out that we were expecting. We had to complete an addendum to our already updated HS. As far as I understand from our SW, the entire updated HS and addemdum was sent to CCAA. Once our baby was born we had to prepare a second addendum. Again, unless I’m totally missunderstanding her…this was also translated and forwarded to the CCAA. Maybe it’s different from country to country (we are in Canada) but as far as I know the CCAA has seen it all. Needless to say only certain departments at CCAA are reviewing this and maybe they don’t even look at it, but they certainly have it ALL in their possession.
January 18th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
RQ
Does anyone know what would happen if someone who was logged in under the new rules actually gets sick, gains 200 pounds, etc. etc. before their homestudy update to renew their 171-H? Will China okay this???
Signed,
Worry Wart
January 18th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Just starting the “journey” and thank you RQ and the community for all the wonderful information. :-)
DH and I would not be able to apply until after 5/1, so the new rules would apply to us. I am only concerned with one thing at the moment. Due to genetics, I have been diagnosed with high cholesterol and only medication can keep it down to normal levels (I have no heart disease or any other ailment). BMI puts me under the overweight category not obese (I am working out to reduce that). Has anyone heard of that being a “no” factor?
We are meeting with an agency in early Feb for q&a, so of course they would be the ones to know but I don’t want to put our hearts and souls into it if we are out of the running before we even leave the gate.
January 18th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
We too are freaking out at the re-do of the I-600A, the only change is we have LESS money in the amount of about $20K we paid the adoption fees out of this and paid a car off…so we are freaking out!. We have to resubmit all financials, medicals and have a hs visit, I am hoping the sw understands that they got $1,000 for postplacement fees, they got $3K first go around, then the fees for the I-600A, etc…surely they won’t deny us? We still have money for the adoption, all this was factored in at the beginning….help.
January 18th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Our agency is only sending the HS update to the CIS. I guess it is their judgement whether China needs it or not. I had no changes but my age, daughter’s age, daughter’s school, and net worth (increased!). The information is required to meet the CIS requirement, I think, not China’s
PJM
10/26
January 18th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
4emily,
as far as I know the only rule CIS has on the money side is the 30k for 3 family members and 10k more for each additional. The social worker, IMHO does not have a right to be more picky than the BCIS, unless she feels the child will be endangered by something. THere are all kinds of great families and not all of them have a lot of cash!
PJM
10/16/05
January 18th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Thanks PJ Mama,
They are telling us they will call us in 2 weeks as they are so busy with rushing people to make the deadline for China!
Our income is the same, our bank account is not, we do have to redo medicals and have all blood tests redone, except the tb tine tests! We have to supply this years tax return(it is not even done yet nor has any of the info to do it arrived!@),they want our bank statements for last 6 months! They need employment letters, I said, “OMG it is like starting over from square one” and she said, “precisely, sorry but it is and our fees for a hs update are $250/hour” terrific!!!!!!!!!! :(
LID May 15,2006 going crazy with the wait, since its a redo of everything oh and we have to send new birth and marriage certificates! WTH?
January 18th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
We brought an addendum on both of our adoption trips. The first time, nobody cared about it as it was a statement of my quitting my job. The second time it was an issue because it was for our recent move and they needed to have the correct addresses for the paperwork. There was no concern over the other details.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Three years ago my husband was out playing basketball and his heart started to skip. He went to see the Cardiologist and she diagnosed him as a Cardio Myopic Patient. He has been taking Coreg for 3 years 6.25mg a day, the lowest you can take. He is now a recovered Cardio Myopic Patient and the doctor is keeping him on the meds because of family history. We called our agency about this because of the new rules and they asked him if he could get off of the Coreg. If he was off of it they would accept us but if he was not they would have to send it to CCAA for review. Coreg is a beta blocker and is not detected in the blood. It is only found in your liver through a liver sample and only after many years on a large dose.
I hope this helps!
January 18th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
4emily,
Why would you need ALL that updated stuff?
January 18th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
So has anyone heard anything about the anti-depressent issue. Is the 2 year ban a hard deadline. Is any amount of use unacceptable.
I have not heard of anyone with past or present use of anti-depressents being turned down yet but I have heard about people chosing not to mention their use of these medications.
January 19th, 2007 at 1:26 am
I was not rejected as a new applicant, but I would have been if I had used anti-depressants. When I called the agency which we used for our first adoption to ask about their SN program if we miss the May 1 deadline (my husband is 50 now), the coordinator asked if I or my husband had taken anti-depressants in the last two years. When I said no, she pressed me, saying that this included anti-depressants taken for any reason, even medical ones such as hot flashes or back pain. I said that several years ago I taken an anti-depressant for a couple of weeks to see if it would help with a gastro-intestinal problem (it didn’t). She said I would be fine as long as it was more than two years ago. When I said that I was sure that it was, she said that she would add me to the waiting list for SN if I missed the May 1 deadline. It is clear to me that the agency believes that the anti-depressant ban is not flexible at all. I am they are wrong.
January 19th, 2007 at 1:27 am
I was not rejected as a new applicant, but I would have been if I had used anti-depressants. When I called the agency which we used for our first adoption to ask about their SN program if we miss the May 1 deadline (my husband is 50 now), the coordinator asked if I or my husband had taken anti-depressants in the last two years. When I said no, she pressed me, saying that this included anti-depressants taken for any reason, even medical ones such as hot flashes or back pain. I said that several years ago I taken an anti-depressant for a couple of weeks to see if it would help with a gastro-intestinal problem (it didn’t). She said I would be fine as long as it was more than two years ago. When I said that I was sure that it was, she said that she would add me to the waiting list for SN if I missed the May 1 deadline. It is clear to me that the agency believes that the anti-depressant ban is not flexible at all.
January 19th, 2007 at 1:29 am
Sorry for the double post! I am new here.
January 19th, 2007 at 2:36 am
waiting4_2nd Says:
I am trying to figure that out myself!! I called the HS agency about the fingerprint updates and the I-171H redo. I was told that it was like starting from sq. one, after we took our kids to the dr for physicals and our selves and we did the blood work again and provided all the financials, this yrs taxes etc then they would send a sw out for the update. Our sw is no longer with them too I was told :(
I was told they would talk specifics in 2 weeks as they are too swamped now with the deadlines for China. When I pressed them further I was told to call back Feb 5th as they are short staffed. I was told San Diego is running 12 weeks at present for the I-171H and 4 weeks for fingerprint appts. She said they have to send all that in the hs for the I-600A update, I said great thousands more…:( that is when I was told they “try to keep it min. but do charge $250/hr and it is usually $1,000 to $1,200 for the update! WTH?
January 19th, 2007 at 9:23 am
We just renewed our home study in California. Our SW came, looked at our tax returns, took some notes and - no charge! Those who are searching for agencies to handle their adoptions should make additional charges due to delays part of their question list, but who knew way back when that we’d all be in this boat?
LID 12/13/05
January 19th, 2007 at 10:16 am
We are in the middle of our homestudy update in Virginia. We too are working with a new SW since our original one has left our agency. We are in the process of building a new home so we live in a rental home while we sell our old home. The sw (who I love by the way) visted our rental home to make sure it had enough room, was safe, etc. in case we get our referral before the new house is ready (yeah, right, like that’s going to happen!). She asked if there were any other changes (there were not) and then that was that. The cost for the update was $500. The only documentation we have to submit for the update is medical, criminal and child protective services background checks and DMV records. The medical requirement for VA is much less stringent than for China and we only had to meet VA standards. They required no financial info, tax records, job letters, etc.
We had to pay to get all of those records all over again on top of the $500 and the I600A fees.
For the updated I171H we must submit an updated homestudy, copies of the documents as required by the I600A and the fees for the processing and re-fingerprinting.
I don’t believe any of this will be submitted to China although I’m not sure about the address change issue. Does anyone know if that has to go?
This is just an fyi for others who are going through this now.
Beth
January 19th, 2007 at 11:32 am
The idea that agencies wanting clients are suggesting
that emotionally-vulnerable people (wanting/needing adoption)
consider going off doctor-precscribed (and possibly much-needed medication)
in order to qualify for CCAA rules
is a little freaky. We already know, from seeing their false estimates of wait times (and the guy on RQ site who found out his agency knowlingly gave him false information) that some US agencies do not act in the best interests of their clients. Even suggesting that someone go off meds seems way out of line. I realize that question may have been simply ‘Is it possible to…’ - but the idea of people with no education in that area even making these suggestions to people who are desperate for a child …. seems ethically suspect. Some real disasters could come out of this. (Harm to a parent who needed meds; harm to a child raised by a parent who needed meds).
———–
“He is now a recovered Cardio Myopic Patient and the doctor is keeping him on the meds because of family history. We called our agency about this because of the new rules and they asked him if he could get off of the Coreg. If he was off of it they would accept us but if he was not they would have to send it to CCAA for review.”
January 19th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Hi all. It has been a while since I have logged in to post. We are getting ready to send in our Dossier for our second baby any day. The question I have about these new rules is “will these make the wait shorter for the applicants who submit their dossiers after May1 or will this make the process as a whole speed up for all who are already LID in China theirfor cause a domino effect?” One of the large China only agencys is telling new applicants it will be an 18 month wait. We are just trying to settle into a relistic time frame here, as I am sure everyone is.
I don’t mind China setting new guidelines. I feel they should actually. Korea’s rules were such, my spouse and I didn’t qualify to adopt from there. That was OK. Other countrys were willing to acept us. So we found a country that would. A close friend(single) applied to my agency to adopt from China back in early Sept. 06. She was told shortly after that she was not going to qualify because China was NOT going to allow single females to adopt anymore. Nothing was said about May1 being the cut off date. She would have had her Dossier done way before that. So, some of this stuff I think is agency rulls cutting people off before the deadline for what ever the reason.
If anyone has any insight on my question, please send your ideas my way. :)
January 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Agencies have been limiting how many singles they will take for quite some time.
As for your other question, those LID by May are unlikely to have their process speeded up. It is also likely that the backlog will be much larger by May and therefore those who submit after May are also likely to have a long wait.
On another note hopefully no one is so desperate for a child that they would quit needed meds but I do expect a substantial number of people who have taken anti-depressants will chose not to mention that fact to the agency or the Doctor who signs their medical forms.