A Dilemma
Someone PM’d me the following dilemma:
An FCC group has playdates a few times a month. Someone invariably sees all of the kids playing and all of the Caucasian moms and asks questions and says something like “it’s just wonderful that ya’ll have done that”, or “those kids are so lucky to have been adopted”, or occasionally even something much worse like “it’s a shame people in China just throw their baby girls away”. One mom in the group always says “yes, it is”, or “yes, they are”, or “yes, it is”.
This mom has tried to speak up to counter that in a nice way, but everyone looks at her like she’s grown a third ear. When she says “no, we’re the lucky ones”, or “no, it’s just the way we chose to grow our family” the other mom’s look at her like she’s stealing their thunder or she’s started speaking in tongues or something.
She’s about to stop going to playdates and just ask a few of the moms & kids over to her house occasionally so her child can play with those kids without risk of strangers asking these kinds of questions.
I’m at a loss for any other way for her to try to handle this. I wouldn’t want my children to hear another mom agree with those kinds of statements, either. And yet, I do want her growing up with friends from China who’ve been adopted.
I’ve talked to this woman via PM’s and told her that I’d probably stop going to playdates all together and I’m not even sure I’d invite some of them to the house unless a mom had agreed with me when I’d answered a question. My goal in my daughters having peers who’ve been adopted is that they can all help each other through the tough parts later on. I don’t know that these kids are going to get the parental support they need to get through the tough parts in a healthy way, so do I really want them to be the ones she leans on?
(And just as an FYI kind of thing, yes, the mom I’ve been PM’ing is comfortable with me making this blog post to get more input and possibly some suggestions.)
July 29th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Tough one. I would maybe keep trying a bit to explain the concerns and do some educating. Consider proposing a discussion of books like WANTING A DAUGHTER, NEEDING A SON. Consider hiring a guest speaker who would address these concerns. But if the group continues not to listen, if it were me, I would probably decide to limit involvement. Doesn’t mean you have to cut them out entirely.
Strange, I don’t live in a very enlightened part of the country but I don’t often hear obnoxious remarks like that.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:28 am
I should have made that part a bit more clear.
I don’t hear these kinds of remarks much anymore because I have found ways to cut these conversations off before they really get started and so strangers don’t really have an opportunity to say this stuff in the conversation that I am steering off into safer waters.
But, this group pretty much just tells the whole story everytime someone asks a question, which invariably gets some kind of comment back from the strangers. They tell about the conditions of the orphanage, they tell about how malnourished the child was, so of course the stranger comments back in that fashion.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:44 am
I am so glad you are bringing this up. We are still waiting so I haven’t encountered this yet but something sort of similar. When I tell people that we are waiting on a baby from China about 80% of the people respond with- Oh how nice, those babies are so beautiful!! Some even say “and smart too” I cringe every time I hear it. Its something about the way they say it. Does anyone else feel this way or am I being too sensitive?
July 29th, 2007 at 9:45 am
I have never posted a comment, and yet, this one was one I could REALLY relate to. We severly limited our time with a group we were affiliated with because (I’m trying to remain as anonymous as possible) of insensitive/rude/obnoxious comments from the parents! (Calling the birthmothers wh…s, really talking badly about China, stealing from places we went…it was horrible!) We are fully ready to discuss with our daughter (in ways she can understand that’s age appropriate) why it is that we made that decision for her, when she wasn’t old enough to make that decision herself.
If it keeps up - I would pull myself out of that group. Do the pros outweigh the cons? I would maybe even ask the other parents, “Does it make you uncomfortable when I answer peoples’ questions like that?” And just see what they do say.
And yes, where we are, we hear these comments ALL THE TIME. And I live in a metro area.
On a side note…I love this site. Thank you for it!
July 29th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Oh…I’m sorry…One more thought. As far as pulling your daughter out of a group to avoid strangers, I don’t know that this is the best idea either. Believe me, I am like a mother lion when it comes to wanting to protect my daughter from ignorance, however, I believe very firmly that it is my job to teach my daughter what to do in that situation. Because she is going to hear that, and much worse, when she’s out on her own. Taking her away from strangers isn’t going to “fix” the problem.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:54 am
There is a woman where I work that I run into every once in a while who adopted from China about 5 years ago. When she sees me she’ll ask me how things are going with the wait ect. There are always other people around (hospital cafeteria) and every time she talks about how she felt like she “bought” her daughter and was so uncomfortable with “handing” over the orphanage donation and other fees. She goes on about how weird it was and how glad she was to get out of there. I then try to clarify it to the others who just look at me like I don’t know what I’m talking about because of course I haven’t been yet. I just don’t understand why she would talk about it like that to the general public and I would bet her daughter has heard it too.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Bonde0613 - the issue is not the questions the strangers are asking so much as the answers the other mom (moms) are giving. I completely understand her not wanting her daughter to hear another mom give those kinds of answers.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:59 am
RQ,
Would you share how you go about changing the course of the conversations or cutting them off before they get into the more personal stuff? I have found that we get even more questions now that we have a second daughter from China. I especially have a hard time with the comments that make us out to be saints for “doing such a wonderful thing” or for “saving a child.” When I try to cut that off and explain that we are the lucky ones, people always come on even stronger with the “your such selfless saints” kind of comments. I’d love to hear what everyone does to deal with that…specifically what do you say. My oldest is 4.5 and is more than able to follow along with adult converstations.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:12 am
willowflower:
I answer most questions with “why do you ask?”
And then I steer the conversation from there. If their daughter is about to adopt a child from China then I ask where they are in the process and we talk about the process. If they have a neighbor who adopted a child I ask how old the child is and where she goes to school and maybe even the child’s name so we can see if we know them.
If they are just curious then I ask my older daughter if she feels comfortable talking to this stranger about where she was born, the answer is almost always no, and I say to the stranger, “I hope you understand, it’s her story and she doesn’t feel comfortable sharing it with you right now since she doesn’t know you”.
When we are with our FCC group out in public I am lucky that most of the other mom’s also deflect the conversation as much as possible.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:23 am
I know this doesn’t offer anything helpful, but I just wanted to comment on the differences in adoptive parent training from state to state. In our state, it was a requirement to take certain classes where these types of problems and situations were discussed in depth. We couldn’t adopt without taking these classes. Yet there were other people in our travel group (from other states) who hadn’t had to take any classes on attachment, racial and adoption issues or anything. They were wonderful people, but I felt they were at such a disadvantage without the training. We saw things right off that were counter to what we’d been taught about attachment (letting baby cry herself to sleep, etc) while in China. They weren’t bad people, just ignorant of the issues. I wonder if these moms live in a state where racial and adoption issues weren’t a required class and they’re suffering from the same ignorance. Although, training aside, you’d still think they’d picked up a book at some point, or talked to other adoptive parents. I guess the only helpful comment I could offer is that if this mom has some comfortable one-on-one time with any of these other moms, she might bring the topic up in casual conversation. Not pointing out the other mom’s errors, but just talking about situations she’s faced and why she’s responed the way she has. Kind of offer a gentle education, but not too in-your-face.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Is it a midwestern thing that people here seem much less curious than what so many report here? I am not originally from the midwest, but live here now, in a small town. Maybe because of all I’d been reading on the Internet before adopting, I’ve ended up being far more struck by people’s total lack of curiosity about our daughter’s adoption. We get lots of comments about how cute and lovely she is, but people almost never ask where she is from or bring up her being adopted in any way (though with white parents, it is obvious to all that we did in fact adopt her). Maybe it isn’t lack of curiosity, maybe it is politeness. I don’t know!
Once when I was coming out of a store with my daughter riding in the shopping cart, an elderly woman stopped me and said something about didn’t I just get a bargain. I must have looked horrified, because it seemed she immediately realized she’d said the wrong thing and was apologetic.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:53 am
First time post, long (and I mean long) time lurker.
DH & I recently received our referral (7/6). Since we have been showing our pictures of our baby around we’ve experienced lot’s of “interesting” comments and questions.
Since I don’t have my dd yet, I struggle to know how I would react in a group of other adoptive moms who, one would think, would know better. If the mom doesn’t want to quit the group altogether, she might bring up the subject with the other moms very casually.
For example, maybe making a statement to some of the other moms that comments like that from strangers make her uncomfortable and ask them why they respond the way they do…open up a dialogue with them about how they answer. If she can gain their perspective, it might help her to know why they answer the way that they do. She may find out if the group is clueless, have chosen to ignore it…or just don’t think before they answer. There may have been a discussion at some point where they chose to just simply say “yes, thank you” collectively for some reason.
I can’t honestly say that I would continue in that group if the other moms were not inclined address the comments in a more positive way. I don’t think I would want my dd to hear that kind of response either. JMHO.
Momwannabe - I agree, have heard many people say this, even family members and I cringe…trying to learn patience, tact, and grace when coming up with responses. Not sure if I am always successful.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I just got the “she will be so lucky” phrase yesterday at a birthday party for my 3 year old great nephew. It was said repeatedly by his grandmother. I initially tried to steer it to “yes we are going to be so happy when we meet her” to no avail. I then asked if she thought of children with biological parents as “you are so lucky”. The light bulb went off big time and she said “you are right, I think the parents are lucky to have the chlld”. I don’t think she will say or think that again, at least not to my face.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:04 am
I am glad to hear I am not alone. My DH thinks that these people are trying to be nice and just don’t know what to say and I think that is probably true, but still. It is weird, when someone announces they are pregnant people don’t say- Oh that’s so nice - Irish/Italian/Russian/American babies are so cute. Instead they ask when are you due, do you know the sex, how about names……
My usual response is , “Well, All babies are beautiful of course” but they never seem to really get it.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:19 am
I’m also still waiting (12/5/05) so I’m not speaking from any practical experience here - only from me being the way I am and dealing with problem/uncomfortable issues at work on a daily basis (HR).
Why not just discuss the issues with these other mom(s) directly with no beating around the bush or trying to spare feelings? Schedule a sit-down time for coffee post playtime and simply present your concerns calmly and directly - no hemming or hawing and trying to be nice - just in a straight up fashion where it’s clear that you’re concerned about the effect these responses could have on the children.
It’s worth a try, eh? And if the other mom(s) don’t agree or continue to speak in a way that’s not appropriate then it’s probably time to cut ties with those people. Life’s too short to waste on things/people that annoy or upset us - there’s way too many good friends and role models out there and we just need to seek out better influences for us and our children.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:26 am
I overheard my 3 yr old DD say that she’s “very lucky”. I cringed when I heard this. I had thought I was doing a good job of keeping her from hearing these comments from others. Obviously I need to do a better job. Thanks for the suggestions!
July 29th, 2007 at 11:38 am
I would probably look to leave the group and invite the moms that I felt comfortable with over to my house individually for a playdate. Then, I could feel out which ones had a better match for my believes in when to share information.
As far as “she’s so lucky” or the “she will be so grateful that you adopted her” comments, I found my best response in the book, “The Weaver’s Craft”. Basically, when I receive that type of comment I respond with, “Yes, I know I just lie in bed at night and dream of the day that my teenage daughter comes to me and says, ‘Mom, I am sooooo happy that you and Dad adopted me’” It’s worked every time and it also gets a laugh that is a bit of a realization of the stupidity of their comment.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:58 am
I would come right out and say to the other moms, “Really? Is that how you want your daughter to feel? Lucky that she was adopted? Beholden to you for the rest of her life for the charity you dispensed on her behalf?”
It just makes me cringe. And I agree with RQ, if my above comment didn’t shake some sense loose in the women I’d stop going. If some of the mothers get what you’re saying, you could then invite them and their DDs to gatherings separate from the others whose unhealthy pov you don’t share.
(BTW, I don’t doubt that the comments made are from people trying to be “nice.” The comments are easy to ignore, the affirmations are what’s damaging).
I’ve had to work pretty hard to make sure my DD is surrounded by kids who “look like her.” She attended a private preschool in an Asian community where two other girls who attended were adopted (into the same family) from China. This preschool had other children adopted from China in the past, too, and they (either trained or came that way) were always good at appreciating all the kids for who they were, not how they were brought into their families. This is particularly important, as MANY of the children there became older brother/sisters during the 2 years my DD attended. Her teachers talked about all the different kinds of families and never said anything like, “Well, this is a divorced family, a little like Jimmy’s family,” or “Now, this girl was adopted, just like …”
I’ve enrolled DD for Kindergarten and the first thing one of the teachers in the panel (an Asian women) said to me was, “Wow, she’s a lucky little girl.” I corrected her immediately, and bluntly, and made it very clear that nothing of that nature should be said to or around my DD. Then I hand-picked her teacher (an adoptive mom herself).
Sorry to go off on this, but it really makes me hot. I never want my DD to feel less than what she is, a blessing. A child, young lady, woman of beauty and value.
Stepping down now from my soapbox.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
As a grandma of 2 adopted kids I see it both ways. I think my kids are very lucky to have 2 such neat kids and it has made their life complete. I also think the kids are lucky to live in Canada and have so many opportunites that they may not have had and also have 2 loving parents.
Its a win-win for everyone involved as far as I’m concerned.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
That’s a tough one. I hear a lot of those comments as well and follow up with, “no, WE are the lucky ones”, etc. My daughter isn’t old enough to understand what others are saying yet, and I assume strangers won’t say such ignorant comments to her when she is older. I am saddened for any child whos mother claims her daughter is “lucky” to be in their family. BTW, what does “PM” mean? Sorry to be such a ding-dong. Does it mean “personal message”, as in an email? Trying to contact RQ and had trouble with the Contact Info listed. Thanks!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
This is a tough situation. When I first adopted my DD in 2003 I felt really comfortable with sharing her story and to answer questions about the adoption process. I feel less comfortable this time around since my 4 1/2 year old is able to understand what we talk about now and I agree this is her personal story. So I tend not to discuss a lot of details. There have been times when a few people have ‘crossed the line’ about how much they ask about my DD’s story. Generally speaking our family’s answer to this is similiar to RQ’s…I am sure you can understand that some things are private. We appreciate your interest in our DD’s story, but we don’t feel comfortable discussing this’. This works in the majority of situations.
Its hard to say whether removing your child from the playgroup is a good idea or not. It may be necessary.
I like the idea of education and/or sharing information from the book : Wanting a son, needing a daughter…this is a fabulous book…explains a lot of things…I have lent mine out to a few friends. I also find when I explain things about the one child policy and how it really was necesary to prevent massive starvation in China in the late 70’s, people start to understand….I know the one child policy is not the only determinant for abandonment in China..but it certainly has been a major variable influencing this. I am not saying that I agree with the one child policy, but rather understand how it evolved. I make sure I have these conversations out of ear shot of my DD. Most people start to realize that the situation really is more complex that they originally start off thinking…this helps them to ‘get it’ and back off…Of course this situation only works when you have the time to educate people.
Tough; but important topic…I know there is no one right answer….
July 29th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
To be honest, most people we associate know the history of our children’s countries and don’t really ask or answer questions that way.
However, I had an incident once where someone said to be
you have a singer and a doctor in the making. They were
stereotyping my children because our dd is black and our
ds is Asian. Our doctors are from China. We went to the
hospital a couple of years ago, and the ENT doctor that was going to insert tubes in our ds’s ears is also Chinese.
We were talking about stereotyping and that everyone assumes if your Asian you are smart, and if you are black then you will play sports or sing. He said he is the only
doctor in his family. He took my dd’s hand and took her for a walk around the hospital with Mummy. He introduced her
to a AA Cardiologist, Orthopedic Surgeon, Neurosurgeon
and another Specialist. He looked at her, and said don’t let anyone every tell you what you can and can’t do.
I was so touched and amazed that he would do this. He also addressed the same thing to our ds. He says it really riles him up that people think if your are Asian then you can’t possibily be anything but smart. He said that there
are Asians in jail and some that are not much smarter than
a frog. We are all people.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
My last comment on this topic: I think I have to agree with RQ ..if the other mothers can’t bring themselves to stop from responding in the way they do (because it is their right to say whatever they wish), then I think I would withdraw from this play group. I think I might direct them to some literature regarding adult adoptees regarding this….more for the sake of their own children…because I doubt they ‘get’ that their children are being hurt by this…
July 29th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Our family just celebrated our nine year forever family day so I have some tread on my tires when it comes to the world of odd comments that we sometimes find ourselves experiencing. I would suggest that the mom in question has good instincts when it comes to limiting the time her daughter spends at play dates with this group. I sometimes think of our FCC group as a high school or work environment. I realize that not everyone involved in our group is someone that I’m going to be hanging around with at any other time than Chinese New Year celebrations. When my daughter was 6 years old we stopped going to monthly dinners because “they were too many babies” there for her taste. She has one close friend from our FCC group and they see each other frequently. I have let her take the lead on this issue because my daughter has made it very clear that SHE KNOWS SHE IS CHINESE…thank you very much and she doesn’t need me to constantly be reminding her. I guess my point to the mom in question here is that a) yes, limit the play dates to people you and your daughter actually enjoy being around, b) make sure that you find a pre-school and elementary school that has lots of diversity. This is a long and wonderful road that we are all travelling together with our children filled with wonder, educational moments for all and of course loaded with love.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
I think she should invite the moms to lunch and talk to them. As my SW friend would say, “Use your words.” She should tell them how she feels. Trust me, subtly is lost on most people.
And maybe after they get talking and sharing how they all feel during those moments they can discover more together, maybe read a book on the subject as a bookclub to learn more about it togther.
wBw
July 29th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
My initial response was to be appalled that these mothers are part of an FCC group. What were they thinking when they decided to adopt from China? Could their motives have REALLY been to save a child? Ewww. That creeps me out. Think of how those kids are going to feel having THAT weight hanging over their heads. It also makes me wonder how effectively the social worker did their job during the homestudy.
I get “She is SOOOO cute” all the time. To which I immediatly reply, “She has a sweet personality.” (I don’t want her growing up thinking that her worth has to do with how she looks.) I have been home for 6 months this Wednesday and I have to say that, prior to referral, I had heard a bunch of horror stories about people’s comment (almost ALWAYS in the grocery store) but have yet to encounter anything but gracious, well-meaning folks. ( I now live in the South.)
The adoptive mothers…now that’s another thing altogether. I love curlylocks suggestion. Straight forward and healthy communication over enlightens us all.
Good topic.
Laureen
http://www.babysites.com/sites/laureenmary
PS My daughter and I just returned from a visit home to New England and I (like Franniesmom commented above) was struck by the utter LACK of curiousity. Or maybe it’s just a New England Reserve kind of thing. It actually felt strange NOT to be stopped and asked questions.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
I also agree that some ties are better severed. Spend time with people who are really important to you, not just people who share the same ethnicity with your daughter.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
How about a RQ book club on the subject?
July 29th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
I’m with those who favor being up front and talking about it. Subtlety often doesn’t work and it’s best to be straightforward. Although we haven’t completed our adoption yet, I ran into some issues with our son’s baby play group 6 years ago when we just didn’t line up philosophically and I got tired of feeling like the pariah. I ended up scheduling private play dates with a few of the moms that I felt would be more receptive and I talked to them about my concerns. By taking them on individually rather than en masse, I think I was able to forge good connections with at least a few of them. I did end up going to that particular play group but staying in touch with the ones who had taken the time to try and understand my point of view.
I’d suggest that she: (a) be up front and direct about her concerns, and consider discussing concerns with the moms individually; (b) leaving the play group if she decides that is necessary, but don’t isolate herself or her child–instead find more suitable alternatives; (c) as for the public/ stranger part of this dilemma, stranger weirdness can’t be avoided so keep developing good answers and comebacks, and teach her daughter how to deal with the public. It’s something she will have to learn to do and you can’t run way from it.
Just BTW, rude comments from strangers aren’t limited to international adoptions. When our son was 9 months old, a my husband was carrying him in a baby carrier and a woman in the supermarket walked up to him and said, “You ought to be ashamed of yourself, fathering children at your age.” (Mind you, he was all of 40 years old at the time!) Another woman once said to my husband in the checkout line, “You know, that baby may be cute now, but in a few years he’s gonna make your life a living hell!”
Alas, the world is full of such challenges…..and I think our adoptive children take a double hit.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
There are some people who truly have not considered the implications of their answers to comments like that, and if this group of moms falls under that category, then some may respond to an open conversation about it.
But let’s also not forget that some parents really do believe that they have rescued a child from hell. You may not be successful at changing their minds by explaining Chinese history, etc.
I have to admit that I sometimes just nod and smile when people say things like, “I think it’s so great that you’re adopting” not because I agree or because I like those platitudes (I hate them) but because I don’t always feel like having a teachable moment. We’ve been on this journey for 29 months (including the paperchase) and we’re still waiting– it’s worn me down. I used to be a lot more willing to educate well meaning but ignorant people. I’m sure I’ll be reinvigorated when we finally bring our daughter home and there are implications for her if she overhears these things, but for right now, I pass up more situations that I engage in.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Thankfully, I am also a Midwesterner, and I agree that people don’t seem to ask a great deal of questions or even make many comments. Maybe I just don’t go out enough. On the few occasions when I have gotten the “she’s so lucky” comment, like so many of you I have countered with the, “no I’m/we’re the lucky ones.” I’m wondering if I should rethink that response. Yes my daughter is lucky…but I hope someday to communciate to her that she’s no luckier with us than she would have been with her first parents, nor — in any of the ways that really matter — is her life even that different. It is what it is. For whatever reason her first parents weren’t able to continue caring for her and she was so lucky that they were loving enough to make what had to be an impossible decision to give her up. She is lucky to have second parents who love her; every kid doesn’t unfortunately, but that love has nothing to do with how she came to us, where she’s been before us or even where her life will take in the future. As long as she’s happy and healthy, I think she is lucky.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
In 3 1/2 years we’ve had very few incidents. The only time I think that we’ve heard “they’re so lucky” or “what I wonderful thing that these girls find homes” were from the staff at the Chinese preschool my eldest attends, and they are mostly immigrants. I agree with the “we’re the lucky ones” reply. For what it’s worth, the only “how much did you pay” was also from a Chinese woman.
We have (gratefully) recieved compliments on our daughters from people of many races.
I personally don’t see what the problem is with the third comment/question, provided it is not within earshot of the children. It IS a tragedy that babies are abandoned in China, or anywhere else. Is anyone supposed to feel otherwise?
July 29th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
We belong to a group that meets once a month to talk about various subjects in depth. Like a book club with no book. What if this mother invited husbands and wives over for a frank discussion on what it is like raising a daughter from China. It would be without children, one evening. I love our salon group. We have great discussions with a few ground rules. (i.e. do not intertupt others, have a moderator to redirect and get back on or off topic, have a definate topic put out to the group so that they can research, read a book, bring soemthing relavant to the discussion. We start at 7:30 and talk until 9:00, break for 30 minutes, and reconverge for another hour. Discussions may be continued elsewhere. At 10:30 salon is over.)
A meeting like this help in a lot of ways.
1. She’ll figure out if where these women (and men) are coming from.
2. She may enlighten them.
3. They may not want nor be capable of enlightenment.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
I would assume that they are making plans using email. Lots of folks do these days. I would send out a very strong email describing why these comments are either incorrect, hurtful, or just not needed. And be polite and go again. They keep it up, drop the group. There are other fish in the sea
July 29th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Hello…I think the most difficult is to control the angry feelings that those questions produce…but, most of them come from ignorant people, so, How can you be upset with someone whose defect is to be ignorant??…Perhaps I am too agresive, but my answers always try to put them under the light…hahaha…once one asked me: When you go, Can you choose the girl you want?…my answer : FYI, this is not walmart you know?.
Talk to them tell them just how do you feel, and suggest them to ‘read’ and/or to check internet and “see out of the box”.
July 29th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Our FCC has a Yahoo group.
If this lady is lucky enough to have the same how about starting with a more indirect path e.g. posting something like:
I am starting to see and hear comments like . . . . about our adoption from China. These make me uncomfortable because . . . . How are are the BTDT on this group handling these issues.
She will probably find that her “play groups” response is not the majority, this will give the group something to think about and discuss without pointing out any specific person or situation.
It may help the offending mothers see this is a different light. Or maybe not, but it should open lines of communication somewhat.
She could then move on to other similar subjects - different books and blogs, etc.
For your consideration
July 29th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
RQ,
Thank you for opening up this thread.
When people have said to us “she is so lucky” I/We have always responded with “no, we are the lucky ones.” And to date, no one (strangers) has batted an eye at that. But I never really gave any thought to their comment (I just simply thought they didn’t know what to say, so they said the first thing that came into their head.)
Just last week we did have our first “how much did the entire process cost?” And b/c this person was asking about the process (and not the child) I did answer with, “if you go online you will see that it does vary some depending on what agency you use and what country you adopt from.”
Just as a side note: I wish our worst encounters were with playdate people. Why my mother feels so compelled to tell the world how we “saved” this child, is beyond me. And even after many, many, heart-to-hearts with her she still doesn’t get it. It has caused a BIG rift between us. Again, some people just don’t get it.
We are blessed to have all our children. I personally have 3 children who I call mine. How they came to me isn’t what is important. That we love each other is.
Mother to 3,
1 stepdaughter
1 biodaughter
1 adopted daughter
July 29th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Usually the only people who say my daughter is lucky are from China because they really do know how crummy life is in China for a woman much a less an orphan. They are right, she is very lucky to have been adopted. She is lucky to be adored by her parents and have so many opportunities in this society. I never want her to think she is not lucky to be here, to be alive and to be an American. I canot understand why anyone would not want their child to think that. Is it better to let them think the lucky ones are still in China? As for censoring what your child hears, I figure it is my job to teach her at home that lots of people say things we do not agree with. People will say racist things, sexist things, just mean things all the time. I also do not expect my daughter to want to hang out with other adoptees from China for “support”. I am hoping she will have lots of friends from all walks of life for that and her family. Forcing a social situation based on race is a bit odd to me. Our playgroup has all sorts of kids and some are Chinese. I think it reflects real society a bit better. I also try very hard not to make my daughter feel odd or singled out because she is either Chinese or adopted. If she wants a playdate with the Russian or Black child down the street that is fine with me. Besides, playgroups are for the moms, not the kids.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
autumnp - there have been a number of books mentioned in this thread, I’d suggest you read some of them.
Also, you might want to read some of the writings of adult adoptees.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I also believe that talking to the group could be a helpful thing to do. I suggest using “I” phrases, e.g. “I am so bugged when people come up and say things like that” or “I feel so disappointed when strangers say things and group members respond …(fill in the blank.)” These kinds of statements tend to be less accusatory (even if you really want to poke them all in the eye) so group members might be more open to talking it out. It sounds like you are at your wits end with them anyway, so it doesn’t sound like you have too much to lose. Even the discussion ends in a way that makes you want to stay away from the group, maybe you will have planted a seed in the minds of the members. I can see why some recommend email, but even non-issue emails can seem really inflammatory if great care is not taken. It seems like you could have a more open and frank conversation, and the immediacy would be beneficial. I hope this is helpful! I am sorry about your group.
Jett
July 29th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I think I would kind of ‘play dumb’, and broach a conversation like this…Don’t the constant questions we get from strangers get maddening sometimes? I’ve had to work so hard on responses that I think will help my daughter develop her daughter’s self-esteem. It felt awkward to me at first when I started saying them, but in the long run I think it will be so much better for my daughter to hear me talking about how lucky I am to have adopted her than the other way around.
Or something to that effect. Then it opens up a dialog without appearing harsh or judgemental. You could bring up all kinds of ‘dumb questions’ you’ve been asked and all discuss them…Hey, have you guys ever been asked how much she cost? What about how lucky she is to have you? etc. etc. And you could even throw in there how important it is to you to keep some of the details about her past private. Some people just aren’t as savvy at replying to strangers yet and might welcome the dialogue if it is presented so that they don’t have to feel defensive. I know that I always answer the ‘they’re so lucky’ comment with “I’m the lucky one.”, and every time it comes out of my mouth I feel meek and awkward. Because then it brings on more emphatic comments because they think I’m just trying to be humble. I have to admit, I’ve started answering “Thank you, we are all very lucky to have each other” because I know people are genuinely trying to be complementary when they make the statement. A simple thank you makes that line of conversation go away much faster, IMHO.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Hmmm. I get all wrapped up in where you start the “luck” from - on either side, babies or parents.
How lucky is it to have your first parents abandon you?
How lucky for them to have to do it?
How lucky is it to be unable to have a child? (Not that only infertile people adopt, but a good number do because bio didn’t work)
“Luck” has nothing to do with it, IMO.
Determination on the part of the aparents to jump thru all the hoops and wait and wait and wait to adopt, yeah. Also determination on the part of the child, or perhaps luck? - to survive despite sometimes very stark conditions.
Being handed over to total strangers? Not very lucky - scary, in fact!
Eventually coming to care about those strangers and know them as parents? That’s not luck, that’s LOVE. :)
July 29th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
autumnp:
Would you ever say to a friend’s biological child, “You’re so lucky to be here” or “You’re so lucky your mom and dad love you” or “You’re so lucky you’re an American”? I bet that kid would be hoping and praying his or her luck never ran out.
Thank you RQ for this discussion. You are right on the money with this one.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
My first time posting, though I’ve adopted from China twice, and awaiting my LID for #3. Our 4.5 year old daughter is often present when comments are made, either by other adoptive parents, or by total strangers. She’s a very smart and aware child, and not much gets past her. I realize I cannot protect her from the world she’s living in, and the comments/opinions of others. However, I can let her know I care about her feelings. I usually wait until a calm time, like when we’re lounging around in our jammies or walking through the grocery store, and I ask her how she feels about comments that people make, like when people look at her then ask me if she’s adopted or where she’s from, and tell me how lucky she is, etc. I ask her if there is anything anyone has said that bothered her, or if Mommy has replied to anyone in a way that bothered her. I try to just keep that line of communication open, so she knows I care about what she hears and how she responds to it. I also tell her that her adoption is her own story, and she can always tell me what she does or does not want me to talk about. So far, she’s not complained about the way I handle the conversations (usually very conservatively, since I don’t particularly think it’s any stranger’s business), but as she gets older I do expect she’ll want to take more control of my responses and/or respond herself.
As to other adoptive mothers’ responses to strangers, I’ve not been around other mothers who hold China in contempt, considered their children to have been “thrown away”, or who revel in the “luck” they brought their children by adopting them. I cannot imagine how uncomfortable that would be. I want my children to enjoy being around all sorts of people, and to learn that we don’t always agree, but I also want my children to learn the “birds of a feather” thing. I certainly wouldn’t want my kids to think I agree with anything so ugly as badmouthing birth mothers or China, so I would probably pull out of a playgroup if that kind of talk or opinion were prevalent. I wouldn’t matter if my kids were bio, adopted or just visiting realtives; they learn a lot just by watching those with whom I chose to associate. It is a sad thing when our adoptions are looked on as “luck”, when it so much more.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
I was going to say the same thing as Meimei9. We live in Southern California (and our FCC rocks, by the way) and being on the Pacific Rim and having Asian kids just isn’t that much of a big deal. In fact, most of the moms in my FCC group haven’t had many problems with rude comments at all. Oddly, mostly the only comments I have had about our future daughter being lucky is from my Chinese friends/co-workers! No less than three different people have told my husband at work that our child will have “won the lottery.” It is strange but for some reason when I hear it from Chinese immigrants (as they all are) it doesn’t conjure the same negative connotation for me. I think maybe from the perspective of my husbands’ coworkers, they worked and studied extremely hard to come to the US to live and our daughter will just get to come over without having to “work” for it. Not that we don’t always counter with the “we are so lucky, we just can’t wait to have a baby, etc.” stuff because we do. It is just funny.
July 29th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Waitingforemily-We took an international adoption seminar that was required from our adoption agency. I thought it was a waste of money & time. I don’t recall any information on attachment. Most of it was parenting advice that did not specifically deal with adoption or ethnic issues. I have learned much more from talking to other adoptive parents & reading about adoption. Our SW reccommended reading about adoption, but it I don’t think the attachment issue was stressed nearly as much as it should have been.
I think the Mom in RQ’s post should definitely talk to the other parents. It might help them become better parents & don’t we all need help with that?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Interesting comments on the frequency of the “lucky” comment coming from Chinese. One of the differences between China and America seems to be the view of “luck” or “fortune” I have read numerous blogs where people wrote about the people in China coming up and touching the adopted babies and the comment was “lucky baby”
Doesn’t mean it is something I want my child to hear - it does not have such a happy connotation here. But I need o think about this and that maybe there is a slightly different connotation going on when the comment is from ethnic Chinese.
Humm - you learn something every day
July 30th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Interesting topic…and one we have had instances with living in Utah. We have Lilly from Haiti…in a state where the population is 98% white (possibly more)…and Aurora Grace is coming home from Hunan, China in a few weeks. We were asked…”why didn’t you adopt a baby that looked like you??”
When we started to adopt, one of the (many) reasons we decided on China was exactly the reasons these moms at the play group speak of, which is the horrible situation the little girls face in China. Whether we like to acknowledge it or not, we know deep down the reason why so many little girls are abandoned. We could have adopted from anywhere in the world including the US. We decided on China…partially because of the dire need for families for these little girls…and partially because in our hearts…we felt our daughter was there.
I guess my opinion is…we ARE doing a wonderful thing. And we have a right to be extremely proud of what we are doing. These little girls didn’t stand a chance in a lot of cases.
I also understand trying to protect your child from feeling singled out…or different because he or she is adopted. But I think if we can interpret that difference as the strength of our love for them….that the physical differences we have…that the place they were born…that everything that seems to separate them…actually makes their bond to their family stronger and brings us all closer together. I am certain that I have many conversations with Lilly and Aurora coming up in the next few years when they are confronted by other kids asking them why her parents look totally different. My plan is to make her feel as proud as she possibly can that…
1) her birth mom loved her so much…that when there was no way she could provide a good life for her, she made the incredible sacrifice and put her in the good hands of the orphanage…and
2) that we love her so much…that there is no difference whatsoever whether she was born here with us or not.
I pray that plan works eventually!
People are going to ask questions the wrong way…they are going to say the wrong thing and the most inopportune time. But I that is one of the challenges you face going into an adoption. You have to be ready for anything.
That said…we are pretty lucky. Despite the odd looks and occasional Utah-based ignorant comment…90% of what we get is how beautiful Lilly is (with no questions about where she came from).
This is Brandon…Heidi’s husband by the way. If anyone emphatically disagrees with what I am saying…don’t get mad at Heidi :-) I stole her account for the evening!!
July 30th, 2007 at 1:17 am
When we adopted my son almost 9 years ago ( to the day as a matter of fact ! my miracle baby is hours away from turning 9) I connected with a couple of women that also had adopted children. I very much wanted to nurture a relationship because of the adoption connection.
Sadly it took me YEARS to realize that the ONLY thing I had in common with these women was that the same stork delivered our babies. I worked so hard to nurture adoption friendships for my kids that I allowed these relationships to become toxic to me.
Long story short I do feel it is important to help our children make connections with families that have things in common. In our cases it is adoption and/or culture. BUT I am not sure how much good these connections do when adoption/culture is the only thing we have in common.
I think I would stop going to the playgroups. I would try to connect with any women in the group that have like views on adoption and raising children.
Another options might be to try to start a moms night without kids. Have the nights be informal and have a topic each night. This might be a good opportunity to discuss topics like “adoption friendly language” etc.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Thanks RQ this is an excellent tread. We are waiting to travel to pick up our new daughter and in the three weeks or so since referal, I am suprised at my discomfort at some comments that have been made to myself and particularly my parents. At the moment I have tried just to discuss my happiness at becoming a mother again, but can see it is going to be a learning curve with how to deal with unwanted questions. I am aiming for the less said the better.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:05 am
I have never minded the “she’s lucky” comments because I’ve always interpreted them as “she’s lucky she has a family that loves her”. However, I usually respond as the others do, thanks, we think we’re the lucky ones. (It’s not hard, it’s the absolute truth.) I guess my recognition that this a deeper question has started to grow as my daughter grows and I see the challenges her adoption will pose for her and us. As someone else pointed out, what is so lucky about being abandoned? And she may never know if she looks like her mom, or her dad or her grandmother. What other kids take for granted about who they are and where they come from, she will never have. That’s a tough way to start life.
So I have complete sympathy with this mom. It’s one thing to treat it superficially and move on but another thing when the other moms take it seriously.
My problem here (in Italy) is more that strangers think they have a right to come up and touch my child and stare in her face and then say, “Isn’t she beautiful?” because of her exotic looks. This happens everywhere, in highway oases, shopping malls. I hate it and I think it’s incredibly rude. I have only started to react and I can’t imagine what she thinks (I WILL talk to her about it). In Italy they also think nothing of calling her a “cinesina” (Chinese girl) to her face as in “what a pretty cinesina!” Once a substitute teacher at her pre-school greeted her this way and I was livid. (I do not want her singled out as different by her teachers of all people!) I should add, however, that on the contrary, I have never heard one person in our neighborhood, all the people that we know, parents of kids she goes to school with, teachers (the regular ones!), friends, etc. say a word in front of her, and most of the time not even to us. It’s the strangers that are horribly impolite and ignorant.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:36 am
Thanks, RQ, for writing what you did. This situation brings to mind the blogs of adult adoptees who are (rightly) angry and resentful of the emphasis placed on being “grateful” for eveything their APs have done for them while they were growing up. Monstrous. This mom has it right, and the others are off. Even though it’s not her responsibility to raise their kids, and there will be uncomfortable moments, it will only benefit the kids if she stayed with the group for the purpose of educating these moms. At some point, hopefully, something would sink in and open theirs minds.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:12 am
I just usually say we are lucky and move on and then later with DD and DS talk about the things that make their adoptions similar and different. Both my children are adopted and often people will make comments about how much I always say things like about the same as a local child given x, y, z and then of course priceless but never in front of the children. Interestingly our local one was more expensive!
Then last month my almost 4 year said whgen are we going to China to buy my sister!
So whether they hear it from nosey people or from children at school they do hear it and they need to be equipped with answers. So now we have to go through the process that we are paying for services and not the child!
But what does a 4 year know!
Especially when you have to hand over money when we are going to China for the next child!
Children see and hear more and have a greater understanding than we often give them credit for!
I like this thread!
July 30th, 2007 at 6:50 am
I am of two minds about this conversation. When I was growing up, my parents often told all 4 of us children that we were so incredible lucky…to be healthy, to have parents who loved us, to have a warm and loving home, to have food. I always thought it was a very good that they did that, it helped us to have gratitude and to be more empathetic to those who were not so fortunate. I think they were pointing out that it was somewhat of an accident of birth that we were in such a situation.
In the context of an adopted child though, I do see how this concept is different and can be offensive. Why should adopted children feel they are any less deserving of these blessings than any child is? I might respond to a comment like this (if I ever get the opportunity to!–LID 10/10/06) by saying that we have always told Michael (our son) how lucky he is, and that we feel our children are both lucky, just as we are, as is any family is to have a home, food and love. The bottom line for me is that ALL of us who have even some spare change, a home, clothes and food are better off than much of the world…I just don’t like the attitude of innate superiority behind these comments about adopted children…..
July 30th, 2007 at 7:21 am
I think y’all should re-read Nji13’s comments on the context of luck in China. You’re a bit rough on autumnp, I think! Luck, is not a personal type concept, nor does it imply gratitude. It is a reference to fate, or fates, and to the situation here and now in front of you. So if someone told me, they thought I was lucky to have my daughter, I would have to agree (she’s sleeping peacefully, like an angel). That is far and away different from being told she is lucky to be adopted - there is a ‘gratitude’ subtext in that, and the other comment, “y’all are doing such a wonderful thing”, which also suggests the child should be grateful - though its probably not meant that way!
My personal choices for responding would be:
Wonderful? Donating a kidney to a stranger would be a wonderful thing, I’m just a regular mum with my daughter (and laughing!).
I wasn’t aware of any cases where children have been “thrown away”. But I will agree that Chinese population policies are difficult to understand.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:31 am
monami7’s husband - please, please, please, read some of the writings of adult adoptees before you raise a child who also feels they would have been better off living in an orphanage then being “sold” to a family who forced them to feel grateful for being “saved” their whole life.
And besides, none of us have saved any of these babies. Seriously, if I weren’t here to adopt my girls there are 30,000 people in line behind me who would have. They’d have been adopted whether I was in line or not.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:39 am
Wow - what a learning experience this blog is - thanks for all your inciteful comments.
So if I’m hearing folks correctly, it is not good for adopted children to hear “you are so lucky” because it singles them out and perhaps makes them feel as though they must carry a weight of “I owe you” around their whole lives? I really want to understand this. I have two bio children and I never want Sara to feel like she is second best, that she owes us, that she’s our charity case, etc. Can someone share more of what adult adoptees have said about this?
Also, is it wrong that I feel good that we are giving a child a home that would otherwise be in an orphanage? I don’t see myself ever saying to her “aren’t you lucky?!” but also know in my heart that we have a loving home and have been blessed in many ways that she will get to enjoy so I feel happy that we can offer her these things. HOWEVER. I have never adopted before and am starting to worry that I am going to screw up big time! Please help! I love this group - very thought provoking discussions!
July 30th, 2007 at 8:54 am
I think if I were in this situation I would just try to talk to the mom in question. It seems as if it is just one mom out of many and perhaps she would stop doing this if simply asked too.
Perhaps she has learned that these types of phrases stop conversations quicker for her and simply hasn’t stopped to think about the consequences. My bet is that the other moms in the group are cringing too, but don’t want to speak up. It may be a difficult conversation, but really what do you have to lose if you are willing to leave the group anyway?
Speaking for ourselves, we live in an area that has a lot of retirees. It is these folks that seem to always say the inappropriate things and I know out of respect I have let a few things slide. I even dyed my hair a deep chocolate brown to help avoid people chasing me down in the grocery store to say stupid things (didn’t work!).
Its a really tough balance because sometimes you just want to put on that don’t ask me question face when you see them staring and putting together thoughts, but I don’t want to teach my daughters to have this defense so early in life. I think you have to let some of these stupid comments come out just to teach them how to respond and have better self confidence.
Thanks for the great topic!
p.s. if you happen to live in the Midwest… my dad might approach you. He is such a proud grandpa and loves to talk to other adoptive families about his family! I’ve heard him talk about this and he doesn’t always do the intro gracefully but he has such a great heart! Its yet another reason to remind me not to shut out comments from people .. rather to work on my own responses.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:30 am
My response: “It’s not luck, it’s destiny.”
I have always thought there was nothing good about the series of events that brought us together. Now that we’re together, it’s all good. (long time lurker, first time post)
July 30th, 2007 at 9:54 am
The dictionary defines Lucky as “happening by chance”. It’s funny that I didn’t like that word long before I started the adoption process. Maybe….lucky is winning the lottery. But it also happened by chance that I fell down the stairs the other day…but I didn’t say I was lucky. Some would say winning the lottery was like falling down the stairs:o).
I can’t imagine if my parents told me how ‘lucky’ I was to live w/ them or grow up in the US. It wasn’t until my late teens/early adult years that I realized I could have been born anywhere and that all kinds of things could have happened to me after I was born. Things that were within my parents control or out of their control.
I am greatful for my parents, my country and my life. I’m grateful my mom survived child birth and an illness she had when i was a teen.
It’s not by chance I’m doing what I’m doing today. I didn’t become a nurse, b/c I had to care for my mom…and I didn’t not become a nurse b/c I had to take care of my mom. I’m doing what I’m doing today b/c several things that were done on puropse, things that I did on purpose and things that happened to everyone that were completely out of everyone’s ‘control’. There are a lot of things about my life I’m grateful for and things that I didn’t feel so lucky about.
As for this play group of mom’s who answer strangers questions in very peculiar ways…personally I would find a new play group:o). FCC is great. But I have met several families who have adopted and become friends with them, and they have similar values to mine. Those are the kids my kids will play with. I even met a lady on here that lives near me! I think there’s a lot of option when/if FCC doesn’t work…how sad it didn’t b/c that’s most of the point of it. Gesshhhh.
twOH
July 30th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Very interesting thread…it is so helpful for those of us preparing for our little ones.
I would like to read the writings of adult adoptees. Can someone please recommend where to locate these writings? Thanks! :0)
July 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am
It doesn’t have to be as thorny a problem as perceived.
Racism exists in countless forms, some subtle and some not-so-subtle, some almost benign and some brutally malignant.
If you are concerned with racism, and you question the racial undertones in a stranger saying that your daughter is lucky, than she is indeed lucky to have such an aware and sensitive parent.
But it’s not the worst form of racism or xenophobia to acknowledge her luck–in any number of ways she is amazingly lucky.
In other ways, my wife and I (and all the parents commenting) are amazingly lucky to have adopted our daughter.
But to take on every form of racism as it manifests itself would leave you angry, bitter, and living in some place remote without human contact. For even in New York City, the multicultural promised land, people are always saying how lucky our daughter is.
Brush it off, like lint, and your daughter will learn to brush it off as well. You’ll doubtless have bigger encounters with racism, and you should save your energy for those.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:52 am
I’ve read “Weaver’s Craft”, “Wanting a Daughter…”, and several other books. I completely understand that my child should NOT grow up thinking he is beholden to me, and that now that he is in our family, he is on equal footing with our 3 bio dd’s. I understand that discussing his story with strangers is his choice. I know that most people really do just mean well, and do not say things out of spite (I said MOST people.)
But, let’s face it, ds was left in a park at a day old. He had bilateral clubfeet. Would it have been better for him if his birth family had the means to keep and treat him? Obviously, yes. But for some reason, which I’ll never actually know, they did not. He was left for someone else to find at a day old. He was put in foster care, and given no treatment for his feet. He was loved by his foster family. He was walking on the tops of his feet with his toes behind his calves. He has scars on his feet and ankles from being shoved into “regular” high top boots. He would have been crippled at a young age due to the stress on his ankles, knees, and hips.
He is lucky. Will I make sure he knows that daily? No. But instead of growing up in a foster family, in very poor conditions (given the pictures I got back on the disposable cameras we sent), he is in a clean, warm home, with unlimited, healthy food. His feet are in the final stages of treatment, and will be as close to “normal” and functional as if he’d been born without his clubfeet. He has a family that loves him for who he is, and will for all eternity.
I think it is ok to admit both sides of the coin. He is lucky that he found a family and good health. We are blessed to have him. He is a riotous ray of boyness in a very femal house. Again, best case scenario would be that he stayed with his birthmother, but since that did not happen, why is it wrong to admit that he is globally better off here?
I also tell my bio dd’s that they are lucky to have a warm, safe home, and good healthy food, and clothes and shoes to keep them warm, and an extended family that loves them unconditionally. Ds is included in that as well. I do think it is ok to be grateful when you are blessed, regardless of how those blessing occured.
To answer the original question, I would probably not associate much with the group. I would try to cultivate friendships with those that shared similar beliefs about the way her story is approached. I think it is good to give our children the opportunity to interact with other Chinese adoptees if possible, but not every activity is in this case beneficial. Trying to educate every person responsible is most likely a thankless and impossible task, as they are not well meaning strangers, but people who are living with the adopted child and already have strongly formed beliefs. Let’s hope their children don’t grow up with too much baggage.
I’m pretty sleep deprived right now. Two dd’s had their tonsils out a few days ago. I hope that this made sense. The need for adoption is sad and in a perfect world be non-existent. The reality is that there are some children in every country that would be better off out of the situation they are in. And some of those children, thru luck/fate/a higher power, find a way out and a better life.
That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. :)
July 30th, 2007 at 11:33 am
klotzian - racism? You’ve lost me.
lojeslj, I understand what you are saying, but in our house I will let my daughter figure out for herself that she’s got more than some others do. And she already has, and has expressed that she’s got two parents while another family member only has one and it is very sad that this family member doesn’t live with his daddy. I’m never going to tell her she is lucky or fortunate, I don’t think I have to say those words for her to figure out that she’s got it better than some people (and worse than others).
July 30th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Excuse me if my posting is objectionable but I had to add my perspective to this. You see, I am an ASIAN adoptive parent waiting for our second daughter. I am Japanese so it does nothing to speed up my wait and I am a fourth generation, half Caucasian person so I have multiple experiences and opinions to add. It warms my heart to see everyone trying to find a loving response to strangers’ insensitivity.
I limited my attendance at FCC groups because it was difficult for me to hear how Caucasians see race. Since I have faced it all my life in various ways with the majority culture, I was a bit shocked by how naive parents seemed. Gradually, I have begun to realize that I TOO am ill equipped to help my daughter (now 4 and half) because I sometimes “pass” for White. She does not. She has literally put me back in touch with my Asian roots. My husband is White so he just tells people “my wife is Asian” because he takes the hard line approach of “hey, it’s none of their business!”
I think that exposing my child to lots of diversity of all cultures is valuable as is exposing her to others of Chinese ORIGIN…not just adoptees…but including adoptees. I have also joined a group of Adult Adoptees to help understand their perspective better so I can equip my daughter with a strong inner perspective. It is important to have a “rainbow” of friends including Asian or Chinese friends too. We became an international family when we adopted and I try to open my mind to the World because of it.
I think people should respond the way they feel comfortable to insensitive remarks and I believe that the parents who go into depth and sordid detail are themselves probably uncomfortable. They need practice using different words for the sake of their child who will definitely pick up how comfortable or UNcomfortable they are with their differences from the majority. I certainly did feel my difference growing up in the MidWest with a “different” Mommy and a bowl haircut. I really like the idea of asking our daughters what they prefer when they are old enough to understand the words but BELIEVE me they get the emotions before the words.
I am also familiar with the theory of “innoculation” which means that we must train our children for the attitudes of others…it is the analogy of giving them a little bit of the virus so they can fight off disease when exposed to it in the future. These types of attitudes and perspectives are a “disease” to their self esteem in the future. Dumb comments, stereotypes and other insensitive remarks are really “opportunities” for our daughters to get suits of armor for the world they will face with a White majority. It is practice for the times when we cannot be there. I tell my daughter it says something MORE about the person making the remarks than about her when they use insensitive words. If it is upsetting to see how other PARENTS respond to the questions, I’d suggest a training session on cultural sensitivity. For example, once a kid asked me how we see through such narrow eyes. Another kid asked me how I learned English. Okay, so…some people need more education than others.
Maybe I’m overly militant for saying this, but we have to train our daughters to be very strong and remain unaffected by silly, uninformed people who are EXTERNAL to their important inner life. It is and should be irrelevant to their fighting spirit. Yes words can hurt (they have for me) but I was taught to turn that into more fuel for my fire to have a successful life. Whenever I was told I couldn’t do something because I was a minority or Asian or a woman, it made me want to do it MORE. And it all worked out for me VERY well. I try hard not to judge others because it is sometimes their choice to remain uninformed about China the birthplace of most of Asian culture. It is, without a doubt, a place with a history and a people to be greatly admired. My appreciation to you RQ for this discussion…
July 30th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Will my daughter probably have more opportunity because my wife and I adopted her, yes. Does she have two parents that will do anything for her, yes. But she is not the lucky one. Whatever investment we have made, emotional, financial etc, being her ‘da da’ more than compensates. I have been criticized for previous posts about not being nice, but it is good to see that most parents of adoptees from China do not feel entitled.
I would respectfully tell the mothers who don’t agree that its a shame, but my daughter will not be exposed to that kind of talk. If this id how you truly feel, good bye and good luck.
My wife has made up business cards for inquiring strangers. When our daughter is old enough to answer the questions. (she is 18 months mow) she will ask her if she wants to talk. If not, she will hand the person a card that says ‘adoption is a wonderful way to grow a family, but it is private. If you would like more information please contact ..’ followed by our agencies contact info.
And I agree with the above post it not luck, its a blessing, and I am the one who received it.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Portlandval =
I understand how do you feel and I agree with you.
I am 50% Mexican-50% italian, married with a Mexican, living in Montreal (French Canada) and I will have a Chinese daughter. I focus to say ‘One world’ and take the best of it.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
I don’t think people who express the view that adoptive children “are lucky” or that apoptive parents “are wonderful” are either ignorant or insensitive.
While such comments may be ill-advised in the presence of our children, the fact remains that the children we adopt, as compared to the many who are not adopted, are very lucky, and their parents are, by adopting them, doing something which is very wonderful and admirable.
These sorts of comments don’t need to be met with an agressive response. Rather, a simple, “thank-you”, along with a simple affirmation of how lucky or priviledged we are to have our children, is in order.
Affirming that our children have been blessed or that we, as parents, have done something good doesn’t in any way denigrate from the fact that our children are blessings. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
I love my children. I’m thankful for every day with them, and consider each of them a blessing and an incredible gift. I also, however, believe that they have been blessed as well.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
I just want to clear something up. RQ I love what you do here and I do think this topic deserves a lot of discussion. I think My husbands point was taken out of context however. We never tell our children that they should be happy to be here! Actually Lilly saved me if anything. We will always be the lucky ones for having our girls. They literally are the reason I wake up everyday! None of you can understand our family any more than I can understand yours. We are all different.
We do have a slightly different situation with Lilly though. She was very sick and we were told 3 different times that she was going to die and we should give up on her and “choose”(a term I loath) another child. I could never give up. In Lilly situation they had no money to get her the medical care she needed and were fully prepared to just let her die. There are literally thousands of Children who die every year in Haiti. Their thinking is don’t waste your time. Pick a healthy one! They actually said to me the first time I met Lilly “why do you want a sick baby?” I said I don’t I want this baby to be healthy! She was our daughter. I literally think I would have stopped breathing if at any point she did. I spent a month and a half in Haiti. This was caused because my daughters birth mother had given up. She took off when Lilly got really sick and wasn’t there to finish signing papers. Eventually Lilly was listed as abandoned and we came home. I never want her to know this story. I never want her to know that her birth mother did in fact give up on her. She is everything to us. She is a miracle everyday. I honestly cannot imagine her being any more wanted or loved than she is. It breaks my heart to know that eventually when she is much older we will have to show her those papers from that time and she will know. I just want her to know that she is loved and adored and wanted more than we could ever tell her. By the way since coming home she is now healthy and thriving. And she is as wild as they come.
My point is that in her situation I guess we did save her and in Haiti any child who is adopted can see that they are in a better place in America than in Port Au Prince. The children that stay behind are left wandering the streets naked and barefoot, begging for food beside their mothers. It is a very sad place. These are facts that we cannot hide from our children. We are planning to go back to visit many times. We get together with other parents and children from her orphanage and we try tirelessly to find homes for every child that walks through her orphanages door. Our girls can’t see all this and not get it. I think my husbands issue is that he feels people are trying to hide the fact that their children are adopted. Believe me some days you just want people to leave you alone. But what if I don’t talk to that one person and that is a future parent to one of the children still in Haiti or China. We are not forcing the fact that our children are any different or were saved. We just are very open with them about where they came from and that we are all different, but that we all love one another and are all family.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
RQ,
The only real discussions I’ve had about being “lucky or blessed” to be in our family are with my soon to be 8 yo’s (twins). They have seen children and adults around town and asked “why don’t they have shoes?” or “why is that man asking for money at the stop light?”. This goes along with “Why does grandma work at Goodwill and why do we need a place like that anyways?” (that was just this weekend.) That opens the discussion about different circumstances. I am sometimes surprised at how observant they are, and am glad when we can address issues instead of letting them figure things out for themselves with their limited, 8 yo view of the world.
For instance, just yesterday one of them was at the grocery store with me. We managed to follow around the same man (presumed father) and little girl. The girl was barefoot, filthy, had nothing on but panties and a large man’s t-shirt, and to top it off a haircut that looked like it had been done with a kitchen knife. Dd asked me in the car afterwards why she was allowed to go out without shoes, and why was she wearing just that shirt? We discussed that some families have more than others, etc. On her own, she then adds “well, her father looked like he had pretty nice clothes.” He was clean, and clothed appropriately. There are no easy explanations for these things, whether it is among adults or with your child. But I do believe in discussing them, and letting our children develop an appreciation for what they do have. I don’t state that we are better, but that we are blessed or lucky (depending on your religious outlook).
July 30th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
For those still hung up on the “lucky” thing, you might want to read my blog post last night about GlitterGirl
http://chinaadopttalk.com/ggandtt/
And if you’re a member of the forum you may want to read through this thread:
http://chinaadopttalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=7024.0
That thread starts off very (very) rocky, but then we had some nice conversation. There are several web sites and forums and articles linked, I would encourage you to take the time to read through some of them.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
In response to the original question about whether to discontinue these playdates (that was the question wasn’t it?), I would try and look past these responses that indicate agreement with the strangers’ comments and base my decision on the totality of what your child is receiving from the playdates (taking into consideration the parents’ apparent agreement with the comments). I don’t believe you can judge what type of parent one is or the type of support s/he provides by these responses alone. Many, many people would rather nod in agreement then make someone else feel uncomfortable but that nod does not reflect their true feelings nor how much support they give their children. My DH is one of those and I am not. We are trying to find a happy medium because we hear the same or similar comments on a regular basis (the latest “are they real sisters”). Said another way, my DH doesn’t place much emphasis on the actual words someone uses, but assume they meant to use the right words and just didn’t know the right way to say it or were unintentionally careless with their words. If their demeanor indicates they are happy for us and genuinely interested, then it doesn’t matter to him the words that come out of their mouths; he assumes they meant to use the right words (such as “are they bio sisters” of course the lady shouldn’t have been asking in the first place, but he doesn’t get that either). And so he doesn’t correct the person or say anything that might make the person uncomfortable. I focus on the words more so than their demeanor and will gladly correct the person. On the other hand, I’m the blabber mouth about adoption and if given the chance I will talk on for hours about our experience and our daughters’ lives. My DH does not but he lets me talk, and reminds me later that I talked on and on. I’ve realized from a number of posts on this blog and in the forum that I need to start saying less particularly as our daughters get older because it is their story and not mine to share. My point is, its hard raising kids isn’t it? Maybe these parents deserve a break…it may just be who they are and yes, they don’t respond well to these comments, but maybe they do well as parents in other areas. And just maybe they read this blog and will learn from everyone here.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
As much as we wish it so, you can’t get away from ignorance and ugly comments. I doubt that the other Moms and strangers are purposefully looking to harm the children. But if this Mom feels that no other mother in that play group discusses her adoption and children in an appropriate manner then, yes she should consider limiting her time with that group.
Regardless of the comments, that Mom’s child will absorb how she as the parent discusses her adoption, birth family, etc. Her comments will be the most important to her child and the ones taken to heart. She sets the example, maybe it would also do the other children good to hear this lady speak sensitively about China and families.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
In regards to the ‘Oh she’s so cute…”, my bio daughter has gotten that since birth, and she now is so consumed with her looks. When I get home with my new daughter, (LOI 7/13), I will without question ask people to refrain. I would also refrain from the playdates. From what I’ve learned with different issues, you can rarely change people’s minds. You can, however, change your environment. Surely there are other friends out there your daughter can play with.
July 30th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
I’m sitting here, scratching my head, trying to figure out how it sounds like we are on such opposite sides, when actually I don’t think we are. I’ve decided it’s a combination of outlook, religion (not implying anything on the part of anyone else, simply talking about my personal religous outlook), and my inabilty to put into words what I believe.
I have no plans on telling ds “you are so lucky to be abandoned so you could be adopted by us.” I certainly have no plans to say “behave or I’ll send you back where you came from.” (I pulled up the old thread.) That’s abhorent. I have no plans of validating stranger’s remarks about how lucky he is.
Like I said before, our entire family is blessed from sides of the equation. I don’t think it is a one way street, where only myself, dh, and ds’s siblings are the only “lucky” ones.
Anyhow, thanks for all the insight and debate. No one here in this small town for me to talk about these things.