Rule Number One
Rule Number One here at ChinaAdoptTalk.com is to Be Nice.
I was away for a good part of the afternoon and I am horrified to read some of what has been posted. Some of you, one person especially, were most decidedly not nice.
There is no one right answer. Each family makes the choice that is right for their family. On this site we do not put other people’s choices down in the manner that some people have been doing today. This is my livingroom, and if you can’t use your manners and have a civil discussion then you will not be invited back into our conversation.
I do not expect that we will all agree with each other, but I do expect that we will be civil and use the proper rules of polite debate when we disagree with each other.
With that out of the way we can talk about the issue at hand. It appears that the intent of my post was completely lost by the people jumping on the part of the post discussing cleft issues.
My point was that I can kind of see the CCAA’s point in referring a child with a corrected special need that will not need any further medical attention whatsoever. However, for something that is going to need further medical attention, I do not believe the CCAA should be doing this.
It is my belief that children are not being served well by being placed with families who are not prepared for these issues. There are plenty of families who are prepared for these issues, and it seems that it would make more sense for these children to go to those families.
I ended my previous blog post by saying that I would like to see a list of what will and will not be acceptable as a repaired SN that moves a child into the NSN category. My point being that if this is going to be the new “norm” then families need to be able to research these issues before hand so that if they are referred a child with one of these diagnoses that they will already have a decent idea of what that means and where to go for more information.
But what is really upsetting some people, I believe, is the idea that what was once a stable program keeps appearing shakier and shakier. A program that once took pride in only placing special needs children with families who were prepared for a special need is now starting to slowly venture away from that stance. Combine that with the other changes we’ve seen in the past two years and it’s no wonder people are reacting the way they are. If this were to come when no other changes had come down the pike then I doubt it would get quite this big of a response. It would still be very troubling, but the anger and despair would not be there, I don’t think.
As for the question about whether the families referred these children had said they would accept a minor SN, I can only answer for sure about one family that I’ve spoken to. They did not state anywhere in their paperwork that they would accept any special need.
Let us talk about the State Department (via the Consulate) for a moment. They feel that as the “gatekeepers”, they should make sure that parents are capable of taking care of any child that they are allowed to bring back into the country as an American citizen. Since they do not want to go into the business of making judgment calls, they depend on the word of the social workers that do our home studies. If the social worker approves us for a non special needs child then they will not allow us to bring a special needs child back into the country unless we get an addendum from our social workers that allows us to adopt a special needs child.
My question is, does anyone know if the State Department has a list out there somewhere of what legally constitutes a Special Need in the State Department’s eyes? I don’t believe that they entirely depend on what the CCAA says, if they did then the exit medical exam wouldn’t be required. So, is it the doctors in the medical exam who make the determination of SN vs NSN? Or is there also something in the State Department’s guidelines that would make certain special needs remain a special need whether they have been repaired or not?
In other words, is the State Department going to require people to have an addendum to their home study in order to adopt a child with a repaired special need that could possibly require more surgery once the family is home? I believe there are some legal issues here as well, and I’d love to hear from someone who has some insight into how the State Department is going to view this.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Thanks RQ. I appreciate your honesty and persepctive.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I meant perspective….thanks again
August 13th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
As someone who rarely posts here, I must acknowedge the prior messages as pretty hurtful for those of us waiting and always waiting for the next shoe to drop and I imagine the smacks in the face to the wonferful parents who choose to adopt SN kids as they define them. Yes this is not a shopping spree where we choose what we want in a child for if it were that way before I came along I’d surely have been gorgeous instead of merely brilliant. I am LID 16 months NSN program but also on my agencies SN list as well. I eat, sleep and breathe, SNs on a daily basis as part of m CHOSEN career. I love my work but it ends at the day for a reason. I want a relatively healthy child but include those medical things that truly have been corrected. A child with a repaired heart is A-OK in most instances and the problem no longer is a big issie. On the flip side, an operation to repair a CL/CP is major to most people including me. All this means is that I know my self well enough to what works. Every child regardless of their presentations deserves the exact love and care and access to family as the next peron. It sounds like these decisions are becoming fewer amd fewer. For me personally, I consider SN that would work well within my family…(heart repair, extra digit, birthmark, clubfeet, albinism) It is not in me to parent a child with Cleft L/P but knowing how many great parents are out there doing just this, makes my decision easier. Children are the reason we’re all here and they if not anyone else deserve loving families that truly want them and will love them unconditionally to the best of their abilities.
August 13th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Blurry area - defining special needs. From what I’ve read, Special Needs in the US is defined largely by case law related to educational assistance.
I’ve found a loose definition from several resources that refers to “some form of disability or circumstances requiring extra measures to attend to.” This runs the gamut from a physical injury/disability or other challenges to race, or even in reference to a sibling group as that would be harder to place than a single child.
I know historically that the US State Dept has challenged adoptions as SN based on birthmarks or strabisimus, but intl adoption has evolved so radically that I would guess that is a thing of the past. (and I doubt that is what we are talking about here)
I was advised to include “minor or correctable special needs” language in my dossier so as to avoid this sort of conflict at the consulate/med appt. Both my girls were referred as NSN and I’d say that is accurate, one very minor SN has come to light but it seems to me that it falls under the “unexpected” versus any withheld information.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Maybe they should shut the program down for awhile to iron out these issues. If people are worried they will not adopt from China like they used to. They will hire surrogates or adopt from another place to complete their families. I think that the program will eventually be shut down completely since so many problems are happening lately with the slow down and now this issue. I remember reading on our agencies press release section about an interview with a CCAA official this past winter. He was so angry with many adoptive families who wer edisrupting in China due to what they considered “trivial” reasons. He said, “We are in the business of finding families for children. Not providing chidlren for families”. He said he thought some families were baby shopping and not sincere in their parenting. I think that is ashame that China thinks that of the families in the USA. Maybe the agencies should screen more rigidly and be more honest with the clients before things get out of hand.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Many years ago here was a young girl that was watching TV when there was a show about China and the orphanges. The young girl saw that there were too many babies in one crib. The young girl saw that there was not enough food for all the babies. The young girl saw that no one was kissing and hugging the babies. Most importantly, the young girl asked where the babies parents were. Her mom and dad explained that there were no parents. No problem! I’ll be their mommy!
Fast forward 20 years, the woman went to China to follow her heart. That was where her baby was and she need to bring her home. I never had a perfect baby in my mind when I wanted to go to China, I just knew I had to go there.
I am proud to say that I have adopted. I am proud to say that I have love my daughter without even knowing her. I am proud to say that I am her mom.
Whatever path lead you to this point, stay true to it. Stay strong and stay together. It is no ones business but yours and your families. Only you and your family know what you can handle. Whatever you and your family decide when the referal comes is your business. Whatever you decide, I am sure you will be supported by the ones you love.
Please remember what an awesome and special thing it is to be a parent that has adopted from China. You have the ability to love past mountains, past oceans, past fears and unknowns. You have the ability to love like some people would never be able to understand.
I love the fact that when parents that have adopted from China sees another family that has adopted from China, there is a spark between the two families. They almost always smile, talk, and compair stories. You don’t get that with other countries or babies that were homegrown. There is just something so very special about these children (all of them) and something so special about us. For those of you that had not yet adopted, you will see. Trust me. The spark will happen for you too.
No matter what your “perfect” child is, you will know when you hold him/her. When they place that beautiful baby (or teenager :) ) in your arms, you will know that you have the right child. I know I did!
We need to all calm down and just remember what brought you here. For me, it was a TV show over 20 years ago. What is your story?
Sharyn
Proud mom of LiLi and will talk anyone’s head off about her!
August 14th, 2007 at 4:46 am
This is an incredibly stupid move by China/CCAA if they have any intention at all of salvaging the reputation of their program. Trying to sneek SN kids into families who have now waited almost 2 years for NSN referrals is only going to ensure more disruptions. Dangerous - Dangerous - Dangerous.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:32 am
jibber I totally agree with EVERYTHING you said! Keep the faith!
August 14th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Jibber — well said!
August 14th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Sharyn: Completely awesome post, very well written. thank you for that!
At
August 14th, 2007 at 9:56 am
RQ wrote “My question is, does anyone know if the State Department has a list out there somewhere of what legally constitutes a Special Need in the State Department’s eyes?”
This may be state-by-state defined????
The reason I suspect this is because in SC all IA children who have lived in an orphange are considered “special needs” children. In NC there is a specific list of things which qualify as “special needs”. Simply living in an orphanage does not qualify as “special needs”.
This whole situation makes me very sad.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:27 am
This may be OT, and if so I apologize.
I have been really struck during our entire adoption process at the vigor with which adoption professionals say, “we find homes for children, not children for homes.”
While I understand that someone needs to advocate for kids, and these professionals are the people who are supposed to do this, I do always feel an undercurrent of negativity towards adoptive parents when people say this.
Is there something wrong with wanting a child for our home? When people have children biologically, this is pretty much how the process works. It is odd to me that I am supposed to stop feeling this because I am going to adopt.
I do sometimes feel like this philosophy is used as a method of telling adoptive parents to sit down and be quiet; your needs are not important to us, because we are in the business of finding homes for children. But that kind of attitude doesn’t seem to serve anyone in the long run. One of the reasons we chose our agency was because they specifically didn’t espouse this attitude, which we felt was likely to make for a better experience.
Anyway, please note that I am not in any way commenting on disruptions, SN/NSN or anything like that, not having BTDT. I am just wondering if others have also felt distressed when encountering this philosophy, as a case perhaps of good intentions that get not-so-great results.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:37 am
Jibber…
Right on! You brought tears to my eyes. I KNOW my daughter is special and the whole thing is special so I must be special to be involved. Is she special needs? Only because our family especially needed her!
Leslie,
Proud Mama to a daughter from China (one year this week) who WAS/is cleft affected and is doing just great!
August 14th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Thank you Jibber. It will be good for all of us to keep those thoughts close when this journey gets overwhelming at times. Well said.
MoonPie
3/21/06
August 14th, 2007 at 10:46 am
Jibber,
Your post has me bawling at the office! :)
Thank you for expressing what so many of us feel. We truly are lucky to be blessed with our children.
Erica
Proud mama to Kylie & Sophie
August 14th, 2007 at 11:48 am
I’ve read through all of the posts on this topic and am extremely perplexed?
How can anyone argue that referring a SN child to a family that has not been approved for SN is a good practice for the child or the family?
I completely understand the argument that with any child adopted or bio, there is a chance they will have health problems. However, insurance companines do not see it this way and it’s not reasonable to ask a family that does not have insurance for pre-existing conditions to take on this burden.
As paps we go through extensive screening, why not just skip the entire process if it’s going to be discounted on the CCAA end?
Yes, the CCAA can “do anything that they want” as many of you have stated. But, at what point is it our responsibility to hold them to a higher standard that is in the best interest of the children and paps.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Great post jibber!
August 14th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Just in case anyone is faced with this I wanted to make sure you were aware of insurance. If you have group insurance it is law that they cover all pre-existing conditions. I have seen too many situations where the insurance company will tell the families they aren’t covered but once you tell them about the law they change their tune. This is only with group insurance not if you have a private policy.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
That was a wonderful post, jibber, very true.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Autumnp quoted the CCAA “We are in the business of finding families for children. Not providing children for families”
We all need to remember this, as the wait time gets longer. No child is available for adoption due to a happy circumstance. Our benefit comes from another’s pain. The longer wait time due to fewer children, is a good thing for humanity in the long run.
I do believe that IA from China is effectively over - we just don’t want to admit it. The current “debate” of SN / NSN really puts the whole thing in perspective for me. Combined with the anticipated three + year wait for child - this shows us that we need to look other places / ways to grow our families.
I am sure that the China I visited three years ago is not the same one today nor will it be even recognizable in three years time. As the people on the fringes of the growing economy in rural China (our children’s birth parents) assimilate with the new economy, combined with family planning and the new generation of more educated children, the number of available children will continue to drop.
I do feel for the people waiting - life is many things but is not always fair. Perhaps the fairness of an innocent child not being abandoned outweighs our desire to grow our families.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
I would be curious to know if corrected SN kids are now considered NSN to domestic adopters and how many proportionately are adopted by Chinese families. I would bet very few, somewhat of a double standard I would be willing to bet. I DO NOT think special needs children are second class citizens, for anyone with that thought pounding in their head.
also
I do believe that anyone with a corrected SN that has a scar or any visible reminder of the correction is SN. Our best friends daughter, now 7 was referred as NSN. She has a large birthmark on her chest and and her foot among other issues. It IS a special need, the birthmarks are daily reminders that she is different and this will have to be dealt with her entire life. Not insurmountable, but non-the-less an issue that requires care and finesse. A SN does not automatically mean huge Dr. bills IMO.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
I do think that there are situations where a child falls between SN and NSN.
Does anyone remember way back earlier this year when the CCAA talked about creating a 3rd program for kids who fit in this category - otherwise healthy children who had considerations that would make them not quite SN, not quite NSN.
Lots of kids whose SNs were resolved with surgery or whose SNs require watching but no action at this time would probably fit into this category.
Our son came to us through the WC program. He had a surgically correctable SN that didn’t impact his health or overall development. No way was he a special needs child as that term is used in the US.
Still, I don’t think referral as a NSN child would have been right either, simply because he did need follow-up for the first year he was home, and as it turned out one round of outpatient surgery. He also needed to part company with his tonsils 6 months later, and that was FAR worse than the other surgery (two weeks of misery!).
August 14th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
autumnp quoited the CCAA as “We are in the business of finding families for children. Not providing children for families”
We all need to remember this, as the wait time gets longer. No child is available for adoption due to a happy circumstance. Our benefit comes from another’s pain.
I do believe that IA from China is effectively over - we just don’t want to admit it. The current “debate” of SN / NSN really puts the whole thing in perspective for me. Combined with the anticipated three + year wait for child - this shows us that we need to look other places / ways to grow our families.
I am sure that the China I visited three years ago is not the same one today nor will it be even recognizable in three years time. As the people on the fringes of the growing economy in rural China (our children’s birth parents) assimilate with the new economy, combined with family planning and the new generation of more educated children, the number of available children will continue to drop.
I do feel for the people waiting - life is many things but is not always fair. Perhaps the fairness of an innocent child not being abandoned outweighs our desire to grow our families.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
“We are in the business of finding families for children. Not providing children for families”
We all need to remember this, as the wait time gets longer. No child is available for adoption due to a happy circumstance. Our benefit comes from another’s pain. The longer wait time due to fewer children, is a good thing for humanity in the long run.
I do believe that IA from China is effectively over - we just don’t want to admit it. The current “debate” of SN / NSN really puts the whole thing in perspective for me. Combined with the anticipated three + year wait for child - this shows us that we need to look other places / ways to grow our families.
I am sure that the China I visited three years ago is not the same one today nor will it be even recognizable in three years time. As the people on the fringes of the growing economy in rural China (our children’s birth parents) assimilate with the new economy, combined with family planning and the new generation of more educated children, the number of available children will continue to drop.
I do feel for the people waiting - life is many things but is not always fair. Perhaps the fairness of an innocent child not being abandoned outweighs our desire to grow our families.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Wow - This whole conversation is ludicrous. Do any of you out here ever stop to think that CCAA is monitoring this. Do any of you out here ever stop to think that they are about fed up with you picky, petty Americans demanding what you will accept and not accept. These types of trivial conversations are why the rules are getting more and more astringent. This entire holier than though behavior and attitude that I will ONLY adopt a non repaired child who is perfect coming out of the gates. They did not ask you to come adopt their children, you asked them.
Get over it people. DH and I have 7 kiddos.
#1 severe asthmatic
#2 allergies
#3 relatively healthy
#4 born prematurely with many medical issues all corrected by the age of 9 with no long term lasting effects
#5 we have had to melanoma spots removed
#6 a. 12/03 NSN china has had 3 surgeries since being home all on the ears and is at about 75% hearing now, she is still in speech and has been diagnosed with motor verbal apraxia
#7 a. 12/05 sn right ear atresia.
So as you can see even with birth and nsn adoptions there are no guarantees. These are MY KIDDOS and nothing is going to change that.
When China shuts down You will all know why.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Hmmm if I may And Baby Makes 9. In a comment to a post talking about Rule Number 1 (be nice), I think it is terribly inappropriate of you to be quite so harsh. Making generalizations as you have made is not helpful and does not add anything to the conversation. You could easily have made the points you wanted to make without the attitude, generalizations and tone of judgement.
Am not even an American and I found that particular generalization offensive.
Sorry RQ for jumping in here, feel free to delete my post if you dont feel it is appropriate.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
I am continually amazed that I can go to another country, and a complete stranger will hand over a living breathing human being. Unbelievable. One that will crave love and attention.
I will be taking home a human being. crazy.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Jibber…great post…thank you.
I want to reply to baby makes 9…but dang it I won’t.
Ok…here is my anxiety over this. Its not really this particular situation but rather the growing list of changes that taking place. We maybe one of the first groups going through this simply because the wait has grown so much. Maybe changes like this were happening at this speed before the wait increased but it was not affecting as many people because the wait was shorter…don’t know.
I have never adopted before…and I have little support. My agency is 7 hours away from me and granted there is the phone…but you feel stupid calling them every time you have a question.
I guess what I want people to understand is this…I am nervous becoming a parent…I have never done it before…I am also excited beyond words….I did not go to China to have a hand picked perfect baby….I went to China because I felt there was a need…a baby needs a family…and we want that job. As I stated in the blog about “repaired babies” we struggled with SN….we felt that those children prob. needed us most…and our hearts broke because we did not feel we could provide what those children may need. Could we?….if we had to we would surely find a way. But we were given a choice….we didn’t set up the rules…we were told to think long and hard about what we felt was best for the child and for us…. We thought about going back for DD#2…as SN once we had our feet wet in parenthood and understood more about the situations.
I don’t want to feel as though I keep having to defend our choice to the very people I go to for support. This is the last place I would ever think that I would have to avoid.
Our adoption journey is beautiful and its also very long and frustrating….and the changes that are going on make it very stressful to adjust to.
I can’t imagine turning away a child…for any reason….I want to believe that the CCAA has done its job by putting us with a child that we can provide everything it needs and more. But this topic has me concerned….not because I could get an “imperfect” child but because my DH and I are imperfect and may not have the ability to care for that child. That is the route of what is stressing me….I dont want to be put in a situation where I have gone through the failures of infertility only to be at the end of a very long road and realize I can’t parent this child….no one wins with that….
I hope this made sense. I am not lashing out at anyone…I just hope that somehow someone else is reading this and saying that is exactly how I feel….
~Linda
August 14th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Linda
Very well spoken!
August 14th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
This may sound like it rambles. . . please be patient.
Years ago, when I was teaching high school, one of my co-workers said that she was tired. Tired of the students, tired of the constant whining, tired of the bad behavior, the poor work habits, etc. She was looking to retire as soon as she could, which was that year because she had some ridiculous number of years in the system.
One night, she went home, got out her roll book, and counted how many students were actually giving her trouble. What she calculated was that only 8 percent of her students were actually giving her trouble, which meant that 92% were not.
The next day, she discussed this with each class, and she told the students that she was not going to let 8% dictate how she felt about her job and the wonderful 92% she enjoyed teaching. The 8% slunk low in their seats that day, and things improved for her after that. She was a much happier person.
I tell this story so that you can look at how many posters on this blog are on the attack, ready to judge (harshly at that!), and accuse others of not having good values or being unreasonable. It’s actually quite few. I think that those of us who are open, honest, and reasoned in our communication are the majority. That’s why I’m sticking with the discussion. A small percentage of people who think that I should be ready to take on any SN no matter how severe, and who judge me because I am honest about my limitations are not going to get me to change how I feel about adoption, adoption’s role in my family-building, and what SNs I feel I can accept from the get go.
I also don’t think that a discussion board devoted to the adoption of Chinese orphans is an inappropriate place to discuss issues pertaining to the adoption of Chinese orphans. If the CCAA wants to read it, they can go ahead. I doubt that an ethics discussion is enough to shut down a program. If it is, it’s a pretty shaky program to begin with, and there are much bigger problems than this discussion.
I just don’t like being told that I’m whiny and that I shouldn’t discuss a potential issue that relates to the topic posted on the blog.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
An official with the CCAA was quoted above “We are in the business of finding families for children. Not providing children for families.
We need to remember this. These children’s situations are a result of another person’s pain; it is not a clearinghouse of children for western families.
I firmly believe that IA from China is effectively over. Fewer and fewer abandoned children due to better education and family planning, the people on the fringes of the economic growth (the birth parents of our children) getting part of the action. The resultant estimated 3+ years wait and this SN vs. NSN debate, all point to a program that is going away – sooner rather than later. Things are a far cry form three years ago when we adopted – I cannot imagine or even try to imagine things three years from now.
I feel for the people in process – life is anything but fair, but I believe that fewer innocent children abandoned, is the fairest thing we can ask for.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Wow, Baby Makes 9, I think you need to go to the top of the page and reread Rule 1. We are all in this together. Not here to insult one another. My spam word is China. Another country besides America, that I respect.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
RQ, Can we pretend this is an island and vote people off? I think you should block a slammer so she cannot enter this site. Oh, I guess that makes me a picky, petty American!
August 14th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Well, I have a feeling my post was filtered out because of a word I used in vain. It is just as well, no huge loss to the blog.
Thanks crankhard for putting things into perspective.
As for people listing the SN’s of their children like it is a badge of honor, shame on you! You have children because you want them, the same as all of us, it doesn’t make you a better person to have children with SN’s. This is a discussion about why the CCAA would put kids into the NSN catagory when there is no need to do that, making people wonder what difficulties besides the usual they might face right out of the gate. uggghhhh!!!!!!
August 14th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
I have not been able to check out RQ for a few days, so to come back and find my favorite site and its members being slammed this way….
I mostly read the blog and the forum, rarely do I post, as most often it takes me a while to get out what I want to say, so….
From a picky, petty American: Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
This may be a childish quote - since I learned it as a child, but it works in adult life too.
Windrow, Linda and Crankhard - how wonderful your words are.
I choose to live my life by doing what is best for me and my family. I choose to not have people in my life that are constantly negative, demeaning and are only interested in their opinion. I choose to have people in my life that are supportive of me and my families decisions regardless of what their personal feelings on the matter may be. I encourage others opinions and respect them, as long as they respect mine.
Our hearts chose IA to start our family. Our family’s abilities chose China. China gave us the choice of NSN or SN. Our family’s abilities chose NSN. Our choice was related to several factors that several others have posted. We struggled with our decision for the entire paper chase and home study process. We accepted our referral 8 days ago. I did not have her medicals checked out before we accepted, I didn’t want to. We fell in love with her 2.5 years ago when we started this process. She has been in our hearts for a very long time. Once we get her translated documents, we will take them and see where we stand. All I really know about my child is she is waiting for me and that is all I care about right now. If she ends up being SN – so be it – DH and I will adjust. That’s life. But the point is, (for most of us) China gave us a choice of which route we would prefer. Those of you who are saying others should get out of the program if they are not willing to accept a SN instead of a NSN is simply cruel. To be concerned about what was once a very stable program and to voice those concerns is human and should not be slammed.
This is the one place I feel comfortable discussing matters close to my heart with concerns of adoption. Many on this blog and on the Forum will pour their hearts out over everything and I think that is wonderful - because there is such support here and they are comfortable doing it here. To have a few ruin it for the many is unnecessary. We are ALL entitled to our opinion, but only when we are willing to accept that there are other opinions out there. You do not have to be negative, demeaning and just down right mean to voice your opinion. That is what I love about this place. We are all welcome.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Unforunately, the choice no longer appears to be NSN or SN, but will you accept a repaired SN, and if not, are you willing to bear the consequence, whatever they may be. I think thats the real issue now. I’ve posted before, but say it again: not every family is cut out to parent SN. We will have a palate repair next Monday. We’ve done the lip. Hes done great. But its time off work, money, stress, and alot of patience, I can see how its not for everyone. But the truth is, you may be referred a SN child anyway under these new circumstances, so I would be thinking hard about what I am prepared to parent in the way of SN, if anything. You may be faced with the unfortunate decision of accept a SN, or no referral. Its not right, but if I understand what is happening correctly from the RQ original post, thats where we may be. Its SOOOOO bad for kids to be in this situation. I think people will have waited SOO long for a referral they will accept a child beyond their parenting abilities just in the name of having a child.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Hello, I usually do not comment on this site, I just enjoy reading all the wonderful information. I am very thankful for this site. I guess I just felt like I needed to put my two cents in this conversation. I can kind of see both sides of this issue. I work in the medical field, the xray end of it. I see a variety of people everyday. I do see a lot of children and parents with those children that have no clue about the medical field or why they are in the xray dept. I don’t really think it’s a matter of people wanted the “perfect baby”, I think it’s an issue of what, we as individuals, know we are capable of handling. The worse thing to see in the medical field is a parent that has waited days to bring their child in because they didn’t feel it was necessary and then to find out their child has pneumonia, or a broken bone. I would rather see the SN children go to the families that are really ready to handle that sort of situation. I am single and I am going the SN route and I had to fight my agency to let me do that, but I know, deep in my heart, that that is where I need to be and unless you feel that way, I really don’t feel those families should go the SN route. It’s amazing, when you talk to other people about SN, they expect you to say, down syndrome, retardation, crippled, etc… they are surprised when you say, no she’ll have a birthmark, extra digits, drooping eyelids, etc…It’s just amazing to see the difference in the definition of SN, their’s vs. ours
August 14th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Waitingforkjk2 - well said.
And baby makes 9
Wow! Are you from that other Yahoo group? We play nice here, although newbies to the blog wouldn’t know it by the posts these last two days.
As previously noted, CCAA (not those darn Americans)established the NSN/SN programs and we opted for NSN. Thanks to this site, I have done my homework and any instutionalized child is a SN child, in my professional opinion. I’m mentally prepared for attachment problems and developmental delays, and problems associated with an inter-racial family. So we’re not looking for child who is “perfect coming out of the gates”. But we’re hoping for a child that hasn’t suffered trauma beyond repair. Big difference. Does that make us bad people because we choose not to take on additional known medical diagnoses like cl/p or repaired CHD (congenital heart disease)? Shame on you folks for judging those who do not agree with you.
We actually applied for a child with our agency with CHD but the competition was so high that we were denied. I have no problems adopting a child with a disclosed medical diagnosis, but yes I would like a choice of that SN and I would want the repair by surgeons of my choice. I’m happy for people who have posted that their children with CHD or cl/p were completely normal after repair in China, but this is not the norm. These kids need very careful follow-up and frequently have complications.
Breezy,
Good points. We’re an older couple, first time parents (no suggestions from the nasties to get out of line, please) with limited extended family. We’re extremely healthy with plenty of family longevity, but we have to plan for the unexpected. To accept a child with known long-term care needs would not be in his/her best interests. Just reality.
It’s been a difficult two days on the blog and I hope….well, I don’t know what I hope because things just aren’t looking too cheery right now.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
RQ-
Thank you so much for what you do. Sometimes you tolerate a lot of shooting the messenger.
Thank you for drawing attention to this. I was unaware that this happens. And I think that is why you do this- so people will make informed decisions in a process where we often don’t get a lot of information.
After yesterday’s thread, my husband and I had a long talk. We decided that we can’t be assigned the “wrong” child- it’s impossible. Our faith may influence this perspective, but I’ve never met adoptive parents who felt they got the “wrong” child. I’ve met scores of parents, some with undiagnosed and misdiagnosed special needs, and none of them can imagine life without their referred child.
I do hope the nastiness on this thread will end, especially since RQ has addressed it. In the end, we all want the same thing- our children home and well- flourishing in our love.
August 14th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
china dad 1 — you’ve brought me to tears… Our concern that IA for China may be ending has been growing. If it is for the reasons you suggest — “fewer abandoned children due to better education and family planning”, I can honestly say that my husband and I would be thrilled — even through our own disappointment at not being able to adopt the child we have grown to love in our hearts. IF this is true, then clearly it is time for us to pursue other options. Somehow though, it seems too difficult to imagine centuries of cultural biases being reversed within a year or two… This is our hope - TRULY - but if we are wrong… we and our daughter miss our lives together.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:32 am
So I think what we are seeing is some childrent with corrected special needs (or deemed corrected) are being referred as NSN right? Ok, probably not in our control so what can PAPs do - be prepared, be unafraid as you can and if the prospect of a previous SN child being referred is unacceptable, there is some serious deep thinking to be done (not meaning that as a barb at all).
I’m reading many impulsive posts and guessing that the considerations go so far beyond a blog comment…could we maybe discuss ways to approach this that could lead to some personal clarity? A great group with tremendous experience and capacity to support one another…
August 15th, 2007 at 10:02 am
btdtwjoy….good point. I have had time to process and had a good long talk with DH…and I am ignoring the posts that are not productive.
So where do we go from here? I don’t know what to even research… Do we even have a list of what types of “repaired” conditions they are doing so that we can get prepared for them? Or could it be anything? What do I look for in our insurance?
I am ready to move past the initial frustration and confusion of this topic and move towards solutions to dealing with the possiblity. Should this be brought to the forum?
~Linda
August 15th, 2007 at 10:56 am
When we sent our dossier, I said no way to SN, because I did not want the CCAA to hand us a child that had needs our family couldn’t handle. When learning more about the process, coupled with many other considerations, we decided to pursue SN. The main point though, was that we could CHOOSE what SN’s we were comfortable with.
I think it would be really hard to be given a NSN referral that was a “repaired” SN, and have to make a basically snap decision. We spent weeks and months discussing what needs we’d be comfortable with.
I also thought about the rumors of the “third category” that these children might fit into. To say yes, you would accept a child in that category would imply, again, choice and some preparation.
We all know that having children, and adopting children who are billed as “healthy” still carries the chance of something down the road. If that’s the hand you are dealt, well, you make it work and move on. That does not mean anyone should feel bad, or be made to feel bad, about not asking for more than their family can handle.
We turned down two files of children whose needs were more than our family was comfortable with. They both found families within a month at our agency. We came home April with our son, who has a need we are comfortable with.
But my bigger question is…how many of these are ACTUALLY happening? With RQ’s tremendous access to stats, etc, does she know at what rate these “repaired” SN now NSN referrals are occuring? Is this a tempest in a teapot, or a much larger, persvasive issue that is just now coming to light?
August 15th, 2007 at 11:35 am
I too am interested in what our own govt. is likely to do. I’ve tried to research the issue and haven’t really found any position papers or discussions yet.
I suspect that the U.S. State Dept has been fairly “loose” about approving immigration of orphans into the U.S., but this may change if there is an increase in adoption of primarily-SN kids. I think this is likely to happen particularly if the “sending” country is categorizing children as NSN when they, in fact, may still have medical issues that have been partially addressed.
The U.S. State Dept. may (and should) take a harder look at whether a child has pre-existing medical issues which will likely require expensive treatment in the future, how many children with significant medical issues are permitted to enter, and this determination should, in part, be based upon whether or not their adoptive families have the financial resources to meet their needs WITHOUT relying on state and federal aid.
This is why we have government — so that the decisions of a few don’t adversely impact the welfare of the many, and so that issues of public policy can be considered in the context of the interests of a nation.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Baby Makes 9??
wonder if you’d make the same generalized comment if you had NONE
and sit here waiting for years questioning if you’ll ever have ONE!!!!
August 15th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Baby makes 9???
wonder if you’d make the same generalized comment if you had NONE….
and looking at the direction China keeps going… may never have ONE!!!
August 16th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Sagent,
Actually I would - What’s the old adage” Beggars can’t be Choosers” I do agree as sad as it is you may be right, there may never be one because of the reasons I first pointed out. They are going to get fed up with demands
My whole point in this is; because of a disclosed or non disclosed corrected, not “repaired” medical issues the community is up in arms. I would like to know who out here is PERFECT. My guess is no one. So in turn neither are the kiddos.
The other point I would like to comment is being told we, SN parents, wear our kids needs like a badge of honor. That is so not the case. This is the hand we were dealt, either through birth or adoption, and if we are ashamed or embarrassed by it then we are going to teach our children to be ashamed or embarrassed by their differences. The most important part is we take care of the situation to the best of our ability and capability and go from there.
I just want people to be aware that there is NO PRIVACY when it comes to the remarks being made about China and how they do things
August 16th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Baby makes 9,
If that is what you were trying to make people aware of you greatly failed. I do hope that you have decided not to be so hurtful with your comments and that I believe was your goal. I’ve never understood why people take such pride in hurting others but that mission you did accomplish. I hope that with all the responses you received you now understand that you have no right to judge, or you will be judged. This site brings many of us great comfort and should not be used to treat anyone badly.
August 16th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Here is an article that we came across in a Seattle newspaper while on holidays. It might shed some light as to why there may be more SN children in the system. Maybe chinese parents have found a way around the system and are keeping there children (sad for us, but celebration for them). 20,000 babies staying with there original families is no small number. This could account for smaller NSN numbers in the orphanages (suppose?)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003835065_hongkong14.html
August 16th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
and baby makes 9,
I think you need to learn “the old adage” “think before you speak!”
You said “beggers can’t be choosers”. We are not beggers, we have applied and have all endured a grueling approval process for the privilage of adopting a beautiful child from China, no matter what their needs are, and no one here is begging for a child. We are all eagerly awaiting our referrals and looking for support from eachother. Your posts are not supportive.
I too have a daughter who is adopted and is special needs but would never wear her as a badge of honor as, I agree, you did with all of yours.
Find another site where you can be pushy on because we are supportive to eachother here.
Adomom
August 16th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
and baby makes 9
Can I say this about you, I applaud you for being the parent of the seven SN children that you have. You are definitley a person who is gifted and has been given the extra to raise these children. Your children are very fortunate to have you.
We as a community of parents and parents to be are in this as beginners and as as vets/pros. When we as beginners are coming into the SN scenario it is a dark hole for us. We do not know what to expect and we need vet/pro guidance. To be our mentor is to be somewhat of a parent to us who have not gone through this. Heck, we mentor people in new job positions and the likes, why would this be any more different.
I personally would gain a great deal from you because of your experience and knowledge rather than you tear us down. Help us to understand what it’s about and what we can expect.
When you buy a house or vehicle etc. you want to know eveything about what you are buying. If you you’ve been mis informed would you not want some answers. You would even go as far as to say you were cheated or someone was hiding the truth.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that adopting a child is like buying a house, however, the part about knowing what you are getting into is definitely the same. If we as parents to children with special needs can get a head start on the child’s needs wouldn’t that be good parenting. I know we won’t get all the low down on the needs of a child, however, if someone knows something about the child that should be disclosed then that is the responsibility of that individual. I believe this is the biggest concern of most on this site.
“I just want people to be aware that there is NO PRIVACY when it comes to the remarks being made about China and how they do things” And why should there be any privacy. When something is wrong, it’s simple…it’s wrong and there should be no privacy. China is another culture and they think and operate very differently than North Americans (I’m Canadian, hence the NA usage), but if it’s a HUMANITARIAN issue in that the health of a child will not get his/her 100% attention then we should scream it out. Who cares about privacy!!!
It’s not about having the perfect child it’s about letting us know what the needs of the particular child are. It’s having a family that is right for the child (paraphrase: china dad 1).
What “I’m trying to get over” is the fact that my wife and I are going to be waiting for quite some time before we receive a referral. When we sarted the process it was 6-8 months now it looks more like 2-3 years. SN children have crossed our mind and we are exploring this avenue, it would be a very comforting feeling to hear more about the pros and cons of this type of adoption rather than tearing down. I for one would be very interested in baby makes 9 mentor the rest of us with positive advice.
What I’m suggesting with some of this garbble is that we are on a journey and together we can help write a chapter in each others story. It is up to us to work through this as a community, build each other up, support one another, pick up some of the slack that others might be behind on. Words can cut and wound, especially when people’s emotions are stimulated by such situations.
As my wife said earlier:
“I am continually amazed that I can go to another country, and a complete stranger will hand over a living breathing human being. Unbelievable. One that will crave love and attention.
I will be taking home a human being. crazy.” think about that. Wether the child is SN or NSN.
some thots