What to do
At this point I believe that the ball is rolling and there is probably nothing that we, as parents, need to do or not do.
One of the big agencies is now aware of the correct agency and I trust that they will know the best way to handle this. I know that they are aware of it because I’ve been made aware of a conversation involving first hand knowledge that is taking place on one of the agency’s yahoo groups.
I do not know what the best way to handle this might be. It might be to do nothing and it might be to investigate it to make sure everything is being done in a legal fashion. I honestly do not know, and it seems that the rest of the adoption community is pretty divided as well with no clear opinion speaking louder than any of the others. So, as I said, I have to trust that this reputable agency will know what to do.
If any of you that have information feel the need to do something I like the idea of going to the Council on Accreditation. You can go to their “Report a Concern” page if you have information you feel they need. However, unless you have first hand specific information then I would not suggest that you just fill their inbox up with complaints about the matter. Please be careful that you are 100% positive about what you speak of before you make an accusation against an agency.
I do not know what the Council on Accreditation might do, only that they are supposedly the new gatekeepers charged with watching over the agencies and it seems they are the most likely organization out there with the authority to investigate the matter, if indeed it needs investigating.
I understand that the waiting clients of this agency are very angry with me for bringing this matter to light. I can understand that many of them thought they are a few months from referral and now are afraid they are a year or more from referral if their agency stops receiving these special favors. But try as I might, I can’t understand the entitlement attitude coming from some of them that they have this “right” to an early referral because they were smart enough to choose the agency that gets early referrals. I am flabbergasted.
There is one thing that I don’t want to see happen though, and that is that I don’t believe that those who have received an early referral should lose that referral. That is being advocated for in several places, and I believe that those who already have their referral should be able to keep it.
To try to summarize this, I’m not sure what the right course of action is. I do not believe this puts the China program at risk, and I’m not even sure that referring out of LID order breaks any rules or laws. We’ve always been told that it is completely fair and so it hurts to learn that it is not, but I’m not sure that any laws or rules are being broken in the process. Personally I’d like for someone in a place of authority to investigate it just to make sure that everything is above board and legal, but I do not know who that person in authority might be.
At any rate, I believe that what we as parents and waiting parents think at this point is probably a mute point. The ball appears to be rolling and now we just watch and see what, if anything, happens.
And on another note, I don’t have any new rumors about the next referral batch, but I’m looking for them.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Wow! I just returned from a week’s vacation and I missed so much! Strange stuff indeed!
September 26th, 2007 at 9:59 am
RQ–Everyone on this site knows your overarching concern is for the children. We appreciate your thoughtful posts every day.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:07 am
on a lighter note, when will the ad with the little girls face come off? everytime I see it I think the ad is for poison ivy ointment.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Would you say, RQ, that this is still a matter of a small number of referrals?
I agree completely that the agencies will know best how to handle this.
Also that of course people should be allowed to keep the referrals they have. Thanks for the update.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:08 am
If someone had told me a year ago all of the drama that has and continues to play out, I would’ve thought they were crazy.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Thanks you for your wisdom RQ. I agree, we sit tight and see what transpires, unless someone has clear evidence Feathers have definitely been ruffled on both sides of this issue, that is the agency allegedly getting the early referrals and the rest of us. Now c’mon referrals, please CCAA at least December 5 for gosh sake.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:16 am
RQ, you are in a tough position, indeed. I too hope that there is a way that this can be investigated only to the point that we know the adoptions of these children is ethical and legal. The parents are likely upset because they thought they had “beat the system”. To think one is only a few months away and then learn you have to wait years would be devastating. I offer understanding, not sympathy. We all know what this wait is/has been like. I would be thrown into it now, kicking and screaming. But the idea of hanging all of your hopes for a family on a secret from the rest of the IA community- is a risk and these things can only go on for so long before coming to the surface. I don’t know what else to say but “The jig is up”.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:21 am
“I understand that the waiting clients of this agency are very angry with me for bringing this matter to light.”
Oh, boo freakin’ hoo! What did they expect to happen once their little secret got out? Exposure is the best antidote for cheaters.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:26 am
RQ,
I could not agree more with what you have said. It’s in the agencies’ court now.
As for folks being mad at you, they are naive. One way or another — this was going to come out. If you weren’t here, someone else would have blown the whistle on this. A wait this long and unforseen, has alot of us ocd types searching for a clue about our future children. Someone would have found it out.
What’s amazing is that it was quiet for so long. I agree with other posters that if the wait was short, we woud not be as upset as we are now.
Thank you RQ.
Hann23
September 26th, 2007 at 10:27 am
I’m bummed there are no rumors yet. If they were going to mail referrals this weekend or next week wouldn’t we have heard SOMETHING by now? Throw us a bone!! I remember last Aug (2006) the referrals showed up as a complete surprise, no one knew they were coming. I’m really hoping we have a duplicate of that situation this month. Wouldn’t that be great?!
September 26th, 2007 at 10:28 am
I wonder how all this will pan out. They might be mad but they might still keep on getting their referrals….. I think RQ is right when she says the right course is to let the agencies handle it. I just hope they do…..
RQ–did you hear anything that indicated if the 3 month lead that the mystery agency had was stable, i.e. had always been 3 months or is it growing.
Thanks for all you do RQ. Don’t be concerned (I don’t think you are) over the anger of those that thought they had beat the system.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Thanks Rumor Queen!!! Who cares if the clients from the “mystery” agency are mad at you???? Guess what, I’m mad at them!!!!! What are they going to do about it?? You bet I’ll be calling my agency today and urging them to get involved as well as contacting the Council on Accreditation. Thanks for bringing this to light. What makes these people think they shouldn’t have to stand in the same awful line as the rest of us?
September 26th, 2007 at 10:33 am
I absolutely think this is unfair. I just want to know where the actual rule is that they go in order of LID? Also unfair and not legal are different things. Wouldn’t it take payoffs and such to make it illegal? Just questions here………………..
September 26th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Thanks rumor queen!!! Who cares if they are mad at you??? Guess what, I’m mad at them!!!! So what are they going to do about it?? You bet I’ll be calling my agnecy urging them to get involved and I’ll be contacting the Council on Accreditation. What makes these people think they do not have to stand in the same awful line as the rest of us, and then the nerve to be angry because their game is over. Tough Sh**t.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:37 am
To quote Lilyannsmommy
“To think one is only a few months away and then learn you have to wait years would be devastating.”
Yes, it is devastating as this is EXACTLY what has happened to many of the waiting families who had LID in mid-late 2005 through mid-2006. We were told time to referral was 6-8 months and have ended up waiting years!
I hope those who have already been issued a referral do keep them. I can’t imagine the CCAA would yank them away, unless of course, they were to find some kind of unethical happenings with regards to the babies.
I don’t really think this was the case. Perhaps some kind of underhanded-ness with regards to how the referrals were processed . . ., maybe not.
I really hope not. I hope this does not result in a further slow-down.
All I can say to the rest of the families with the “preferred” agency is welcome to the real waiting club.
LID 12/20/05
September 26th, 2007 at 10:47 am
I am completely guessing, but IF there is an investigation, I bet they don’t find anything other than the “special relationship” that we cannot do anything about. However, it can no longer be business as usual for the agency once outed. They will be swamped with those looking for special treatment. Just my guess.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:01 am
First off, I really really think before anyone goes about calling for investigations and ruffling COA etc…we can’t just complain cause it is “unfair.” If there is proof someone has that something truly illegal or unethical is going on, then yes, contact them. But to just do it cause we are mad…that’s not going to help anyone’s case.
I know all our agencies tell us they refer in LID order, except for A, B and C reasons…but I’ve never seen anything from CCAA on that…and that makes all the difference between unethical and unfair.
As to the people mad that their special little perks have been discovered:
What did you think would come out of an arrangement that starts with “And don’t tell anyone else…”? Anything that starts like this is not good, and you are lucky that it worked for so long, and it didn’t result in you being totally screwed out of your money and dreams like I would have thought would have happened, if I had heard that from an agency…
September 26th, 2007 at 11:02 am
RQ,
Do you have any reason to suspect that this may not be limited to one agency?
September 26th, 2007 at 11:11 am
SKS - the comments left by Gregs the other day have me scratching my head, as he seems to be saying his agency got early referrals and yet has not received other referrals in over a year. That made me think maybe there is a second agency, but with only one person saying it I’m not going to just jump to that conclusion.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:14 am
As for this statement: “First off, I really really think before anyone goes about calling for investigations and ruffling COA etc…we can’t just complain cause it is “unfair.” If there is proof someone has that something truly illegal or unethical is going on, then yes, contact them. But to just do it cause we are mad…that’s not going to help anyone’s case.”
My suggestion is that those with first hand knowledge who want to report it somewhere should probably go to the COA with it. I don’t believe that those people know whether the early referrals were illegal or not, the purpose of reporting it would be so that the COA could make that determination, right?
September 26th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Ok, granted I’m not waiting, but I actually feel sorry for the clients of the “special†agency. Really, they’ve done nothing wrong. They simply signed with an agency who probably told them that they do things differently than other agencies. When you’re new to IA, you don’t know that “different†can mean “wrongâ€. They are just people, like all of us, who want their babies home as soon as possible. And personally, I’m all for finding short cuts and not waiting in line whenever possible. I had no problem in Beijing asking if I could pre-board the flight with my daughter because I didn’t want to wait and end up with no space to store my carry-ons. Heck, even going SN was cutting in line. I had a LID of Oct 2006, and I’ve been home over 6 months with my healthy, happy, beautiful daughter who just turned 2. As the kids say, “Don’t hate the player, hate the game.â€
September 26th, 2007 at 11:22 am
RQ,
You are doing the right thing by bring light to the subject and you have the support of hundreds of families on this board. If a couple dozen are mad at you b/c they have to wait as long as us I am sorry for them but welcome to the club! It is better to be legal and right then to live in fear!
You ROCK! And you have the support of many!
Adomom
LID 12/5/05
September 26th, 2007 at 11:26 am
RQ-
Yes, that’s what I was trying to say…I was just going with the “Please don’t just complain to COA if you really don’t know anything for sure, just because this stinks…” I guess I could have worded it a bit better…I always at least know what I mean…
September 26th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Gee, I’m sitting here and really can’t believe this… We are the very proud parents of a now 2 year old DD. If we were still waiting, I would be beside myself. And yes, we were one of the families that started out the waiting process thinking 6-7 mos to referral and turned out to be 15 mos.
Knowing what I know now…having our beautiful DD…the waiting was so worth it.
But, I do believe that it’s so important to the integrity of the Chinese program that all families are treated equally. At least when we were in line, we felt that all other families were in line w/us and our time was coming.
One last note, I am always fearful of stirring the pot so to speak… I have friends in line who are waiting… I would not want to jeopardize waiting families by making a stink….just my 2 cents.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:44 am
I was not going to comment on this issue, but I have to agree with LilyAnns Mommy..I feel bad for the families using the ‘MYSTERY agency’…particularly if they thought their referral was just a few months away. Its not their fault that this agency might have been getting referrals early or in an irregular way. True they would have benefited from this, and now may have to wait in line. However, I wonder how many people would NOT have lined up for this agency if they ‘knew’ it would result in getting their child faster…Not too many. I agree some might have NOT done this because they would have been nervous about the legality of this, but I am not sure how many of us would have done something different than the clients with this agency.. only you as an individual can know what you would or would not have done.
If I was nervous about the legality then I would have stayed away for sure..but…How many of us knew in late 2005/early 2006 that the wait would go to two-three years ?…not that many..the word of a slow down was just starting to happen..so for those with LIDs between November 2005 - June or July 2006, the agencies statements about getting fast referrals may have made sense…I cannot criticize those clients. I don’t know if I would have know then to be worried. So having said this, I may have signed up for that agency if I thought this made sense…I just don’t know.
All I am saying is that the people who signed up then probably did not know that there was something irregular going on and by the time they figured it out…their file would have already probably have gone through review at the CCAA. Therefore can you really blame these people for being upset for the irregularity now being reported?..I was upset when I finally understood (from RQ..thanks) that I would have to wait a year or more longer for my child in June 2006. They are probably afraid that this will affect their chances of getting their referral…I would be upset to find out now if something was going on with my agency (which there isn’t) now. I am not saying this should not be reported or that anything to do with this situation is OKAY, but rather that we should have some sympathy for these clients..esp those with LID’s in late 2005 and early 2006….we do not know if they knew or understood there was a problem, we do not know their circumstances… By all means be upset with the agency…but just not with their clients. I feel very bad for their stress level..mine would be high if this was my agency (which it is not). I am forever grateful that I have not been faced with this type of situation.
I am sorry if this comes like I am telling people how to feel. I don’t mean it this way. I just cannot bring myself to feel good about any part of this situation, particularly for those clients affected by this. I know the clients may have benefited from this and the rest of us had to wait..but I still don’t think that this can make me happy that people who thought they were going to meet their baby in the next few months, now have to deal with having to wait another year. This process is hard enough without being hit on the side of the head by something like this…OUCH is all I can say.
I think RQ was right to report this situation; and she is right to protect the name of the agency. I think whoever feels the need to report the situation (and has factual first hand evidence of this situation) should do so. However, until I see some verifiable facts about this situation, I have my reservations about what to think. My two cents…I
mean no disrespect to anyone’s comments; and this is not directed at anyone’s comments…its just my opinion..I am sad about this whole thing..
CTG.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:50 am
OBaby Ebaby (Ybaby?) - my statement was about the ones who have this sense of entitlement about being in a different line than everyone else.
The last time I can remember cutting line was in middle school and when I got caught I meekly walked back to the end of the line. I didn’t stand there and insist it was my right to be able to cut the line.
I’m not suggesting these families should go to the end of the line, but I am suggesting that they open their eyes enough to realize that it’s only fair for them to take their rightful place in the LID Line.
And, BTW, I don’t know if that will happen or not. It’s quite possible that the CCAA will continue referring this agency earlier than it is referring the “regular line”. We don’t know why this agency is getting them early so we have no way of knowing if it will continue or not.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:57 am
CTG - we were posting at the same time. I mostly agree with you about the way things have changed since these people signed up with the agency and began the paperchase. And I realize that all of the agency’s clients probably don’t feel the same as the ones who have contacted me feel, but the ones who have contacted me are just so entitled about the whole thing that I’m flabbergasted.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
RQ..well I can understand that..I would not be impressed with the ‘entitlemen view point either”..CTG
September 26th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Well, I might be in the minority, but I think this stinks! You say you don’t think those already with referrals should lose their referrals, and you think that this will not put a damper on anything in the future. But that is all speculation. One can just as easily say that investigating this COULD slow down the wait even further.
This information could be more damaging to those of us (and the children) currently waiting, than you think.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I would like to see someone with firsthand knowledge send a letter to the office of the U.S. Attorney for the district in which the agency is located. The U.S. Attorney can investigate as he or she sees fit and determine if any federal laws relating to bribery of foreign officials may have been violated.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
I guess I have learned in life that if it is too good to be true, it usually is. If I still choose to go with what seems to be too good to be true, than it is a risk I am willing to take knowing that it might not work out that way. If folks choose an agency that says their wait is significantly shorter than all other agencies, than they need to take responsibility this choice and not blame others. We have all been really let down by this process that is ending up to be (maybe) 2 years longet than we thought. I can understand the let down that someone at this agency may be feeling, but not the entitlement.
Thank you RQ for all your hard work and logical and pragmatic thoughts. You are serving this community in more ways than you probably know.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
I don’t see why clients of the agency should be angry with RQ. The burden of “keeping it quiet” was on those clients (and ALL their family, friends, and acquaintances), and IF they’re angry, they should be angry at the source of the leak. RQ and RQ-readers sure didn’t go seeking out this story.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
It’s hard for me to feel sorry for the people with this agency because they thought they were going to have their referral in a few months and now they may not. Hello… I thought I was going to have my referral in a few months after LID (was told 6 month wait) and I’ve now been waiting for 20 months!
September 26th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
I personally would hate to see those families be asked to return their referral. Having been asked to return our referral for daughter proved to be the most devastating trial our family ever went through…thankfully with a beautiful ending. Once you see that little picture of your precious child, you know instantly that is your baby. Our feelings for her was instantly the same as our other children….she was OUR baby!!!!! So to be asked to return it was like asking us to give our child back…absolutely devastating!!!
We were asked to return our referral because we were a sn’s direct match. Our daughter has VSD. Apparantly an updated medical exam done AFTER our match (remember CCAA matched us) showed her VSD had healed therefore she was no longer considered sn’s. This was 2 weeks after falling ever-so deeply in-love with our daughter. Very, very long…LONG story short…we have now been home for 11 weeks with our precious daughter. She is our little miracle and I mean that in the fullest definition possible!!!! We do have an ECG scheduled to confirm the condition of her VSD.
So all that to say, please do not wish for these families to have their referrals ripped from them. I know none of this seems fair (although, I’ve learned that I am not the judge of what fair is) but try to hang onto the hope that things will get better and this agency will not profit from dishonesty. Lies always catch up and the consequences are great!
Once you are gazing upon your precious child’s face, you will know why your ‘labor’ was so long!! Hang in there…blessings!!
September 26th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I empathize right now with the clients of this “Mystery Agency” who are finding that they might have to wait longer for their referral, especially if they did not know about the early referral system when they signed on. But even though I can empathize with them, I have to say that I empathize more with the families who are simply in line waiting their turn, not getting the preferential treatment. If the families who are ‘next’ in the “Mystery Agency†have to wait longer, it will most likely be (hopefully be) no longer than the families adopting through the rest of the agencies. I do hope that there is no punitive action toward this agency that affects their current waiting families.
Shanggirls
September 26th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I LOVE (NOT) the idea that ‘poor poor people of the favored agency, they might lose their early spot’.
It’s not only the enabler that makes things happen, it is also the enabled.
Guilt is not born by the pusher or the pushee, it’s born by both.
If I recall, the idea of ‘just following orders’ doesn’t always get one very far in the world.
I for one think they deserve NO favoritism unless China decides they will cater to agencies, like many many other countries.
Sorry they lost their perk, but such is life.
When we lost our last pregnancy at 32 weeks and I delivered her though she had already died, not once out of my mouth or brain came “but I’m priviledged, I deserve it”. We got a raw deal, but no one owed us. Nope, life moves on, equity sometimes gives you the shaft and you have to dust yourself off and move on too.
if they lose their perks, perhaps they’ll be no worse off than 20,000 - 30,000 other parents waiting.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
LIlysdad: AMEN. Can you say violation of Foreign Corrupt Practices Act? If I had first hand knowledge, I would be getting ahold of law enforcement NOW. I sure wouldnt want to be considered an accomplice.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
I also think that the licensing agency of whatever state this “mystery agency” is in can yank their license. I am guessing that bribery, if thats whats taking place, violates state regs.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I’m really trying to put myself in the shoes of the clients of this mystery agency (and where can I go to to find its name…everyone but me seems to know which agency it is). I can certainly sympathize with any client who has not been aware of the longer wait for others. But I really cannot sympathize for those clients who are aware. I watched my daughter in line in pre-school this morning and some kids didn’t want to stay in line because they wanted to get to the computers first. They have enough computers for all the kids, so its really harmless. But I don’t think any of us would tell our child to go ahead and run to the front of the line because there are enough computers for everyone (and I recognize that significant difference between this analogy and waiting for a baby). The bottomline is it isn’t that hard to understand that its not right for one agency to be given special treatment. Shame on the clients who are aware of the different line they are in and don’t at least feel guilty about it.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
obaby ebaby, I feel there is a big difference in asking to board a flight early and getting your referral months ahead of others who have been waiting for their rightful turn. I feel alot of the families from that agency knew something wasn’t on the up and up if they were asked to keep things secret. It will be hard for those families to wait but hey I have been waiting almost two years now. I feel bad for everyone who is waiting, it is hard. Also I hope those families already referred keep their referrals. It seems too harsh to take them away.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I have a lot of empathy for everybody in this. I’m sure the families who are with the mystery agency just want to create a loving home with a child, like everybody else here. And I’m sure this won’t be a popular opinion, but I accept that the Chinese can do whatever they want. I don’t know of any other adoption system, domestic or international, where an orderly line forms and a baby is produced at the end of it. Domestic seems to be a free-for-all, and I have friends who were emotionally and financially abused trying to adopt from other countries. The China program seems overwhelmed by its own success to me! That all said, I am really worn out by this wait and frustrated by own agency, which continues to stonewall and say nothing, even as they rack up tons of new dossiers.
And I’m not sure if this is the place to leave this comment, but I wanted to say something about the idea that referrals are made farther out than we know–I think this was true when we adopted our first daughter three years ago. A family friend who is fluent in Chinese went over all the documents we received with our referral and pointed out that our daughter had actually been “assigned” to us months before we received the referral. I asked about this when we were in China and our coordinator over there confirmed it. I don’t know why there was a delay in actually making the referral.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
This probably won’t make it past the moderator (and may get me booted from RQ), but maybe a little perspective is in order.
Let’s see … a small number of families get early referrals that probably shouldn’t but do and the rest of us still get our referrals … or … we raise a big stink about how the world is unfair and we MAY have to wait a few extra weeks for our referrals and call in this government official or that one and, oops, the systems comes to a halt while they debate on how to “fix” it (or create a committee to discuss what might be done about this).
We would have had our referral months ago, but some bureaucrat sat on my wife’s background check for weeks. I called daily to try to clear things up and was repeatedly put off. One day I called to discover he went on vacation for the next couple of weeks. His replacement fixed the problem in 20 minutes. That’s how the government handles these issues so you can understand my resistance to putting my trust in it again.
Am I mad about this? Oh H377 yeah I am! But the anger I feel now is nothing compared to what I will feel if some holier-than-thou, do-gooder decides to pitch a fit that ends with my referral getting canceled!
September 26th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
hhbaby2,
Good points. We adopted domestically and waited 5 days before being chosen by a birth mother in 2001. The whole adotion process, no matter where the program, is always a wait and see process.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
overflowing-I don’t think any of us are advocating that the people matched be forced to return their referrals…what is done is done.
What people don’t like is people who knew that they had a sweet deal, knew they had to keep quiet, and are now upset that they (possibly) won’t be allowed to keep that sweet deal…
September 26th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
RQ, I appreciate and applaud your recommendations and stance on this issue. Thank you.
September 26th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
I’m thinking that you (I’m not american, and in my country things work differently) not just should look at this agency, but also at the adoption laws (and whom may become an agency) in the US. Maybe adoption agencies need to be state authorized and supervised? Maybe it is time that the US signed Haag? You certainly could go and fight for that.
Because I think this is at least as much the agencie’s fault than the CCAA’s. I do not believe that the CCAA offered its services ot of blue skies, but that the agency asked for them (in believe they had the position to do it). So actually, I blame it all on the agency.
That said, I believe it is ver unfortunate that word went out on this site and that the other agencies got to know about it. We all become selfish in this process and do forget from time to time that China offeres us a possibility, makes a dream come true (eventually), but that we do not have any claims for their children. And I am heartbroken if the families in question should loose their referrals, that would be awful!
September 26th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
“I understand that the waiting clients of this agency are very angry with me for bringing this matter to light. I can understand that many of them thought they are a few months from referral and now are afraid they are a year or more from referral if their agency stops receiving these special favors.”
Upset! Who gives a crap if they are upset. Stand in line like the rest of us poor waiting people. I know it is not their fault, it is their agency, whom I hope gets “raked over the coals”. We want our children just as badly as they do. I do agree that the ones who have received their referrals, should not lose them.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
hhbaby2: I have also mentioned that we were told that our referral may have been in the works 2 or 3 months prior to when it went out–this was in 2004/05. However, I was told on this site that no referrals were made in advance or at least that had been the prior policy.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I’m with vttoonses. I’ll be devastated and furious if over-reacting folks make this program come to a halt.
What we don’t want this wonderful site to become is the catalyst that negatively impacts Chinese adoption!
Chill out everyone. Just because someone got something before you doesn’t mean there is corruption or fraud, etc. - I think most are just p*ssed that others got to break the rules.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
But I don’t think any of us would tell our child to go ahead and run to the front of the line because there are enough computers for everyone~ quote from cmbj’s post~
I know I wouldn’t but there are certainly many parents who would. I have seen it happen and I find it quite sad.
Like there are some who have commented on other posts that this latest issue is okay with them. I am not sure how they rationalize this but it doesn’t surprise me given the times we live in. I would ask those who think this is okay and feel they wish they had signed on with this agency - to imagine themselves in another line - any line and then imagine someone cutting in front of them - would they say good for them or would they be angry? This is unfair to say the least, to those who have been patiently waiting to start and expand their families, it’s that simple. It really boils down to basic consideration of others.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
First of all I am not with the agency in question since our agency is neither China only nor based on the west coast. And we have an LID in April 2007 so we’re in it for the long haul. But I feel compelled to comment because, frankly, I don’t understand the uproar. CCAA is entitled to place children however they want. If they have a preferential relationship with an agency or two, so be it. Their prerogative. I have heard rumors that they may well start showing preferential treatment to several agencies who have a history of providing CCAA with the kind of applicants they have wanted all along. And why no stink over the fact that there are a handful of agencies out there who are pioneering the new SN placement program? (different to waiting child program)? I think it’s naive, and perhaps a bit dangerous at this point, to think that foot stomping and complaining will make the process more transparent or equitable. I can’t help but feel that all the foot stomping to date has done nothing but slow down the entire process for pretty much everyone.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Bliss - I think you are misinformed. First, our agencies do have to be licensed in the state that they reside in.
And second, we have signed the Hague - years ago, actually. Implementing it has taken time because adoption is considered a “state issue” and not a “federal issue” and it has been a huge undertaking to rewrite laws to put one overseeing federal agency in charge of everything. It is very close to being fully implemented, I understand it should happen within the next few months or possibly early next year.
And lastly, while I don’t really like the system of agencies being in “business” as it is now, I would shudder to think of a government agency being in charge of it. That would be a nightmare.
vttoonses, why would you think that post would get you banned? Your post sounds very paranoid, both the idea of being banned, as well as the idea that this will stop adoptions from China. If we were blowing open a story about babies being sold or kidnapped then yes, that would likely shut the system down. But an agency getting referrals before everyone else would not seem to fall into that category.
I do not think that families are asking too much who would like for this to be investigated. Maybe no laws or rules were broken - if not then I think many would like to know that for sure.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
JJoeJeans - the difference in (for instance) the agencies who are handling the new SN pilot program and the ones who are doing it the old way, is that this is all above board and not hidden. The CCAA always rolls out pilot programs to a small group first to make sure it works and to work out the kinks. There is nothing nefarious about that at all.
People are upset because they want the adoption process to not have even a hint of corruption. Anything hidden and lied about smacks of something wrong with the program. Maybe something is underhanded and maybe it is not - we do not know what is going on at this point so we don’t really know. The CCAA has told everyone that no one gets special treatment, and to discover that this may not be true is very troubling to some people (and apparently doesn’t bother other people at all).
September 26th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
hhbaby2 & klem:
I was recently told the same thing by our agency. That matching is often done a couple months ahead of sending out referrals. They seemed to think that Dec 05 has already been matched but don’t know when they’ll actually be sent out.
September 26th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
RQ-
I agree with absolutely everything you have said about this matter. Please know, that when some people are speaking unkindly to you in private e-mails, that there are hoards of us who are singing your praises. You put yourself on the line every day just by the mere fact that you post things–and to be that “volnerable” to whatever people want to say about your posts is something that I certainly don’t have the guts to do–so KUDOS to you big time! Give yourself a pat on the back for all the good work you do, and try to keep your head up when you get people grummbling about the “noise in Spain” or any other posts you put out there.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Sometimes when you a shine a light in a place that has been dark….wierd and creepy things crawl out. All you did, RQ, was bring some darkish procedure into the light. And I am glad you did– uncomfortable though it is for the people who thought they were hiding something in that dark place.
I am a person who thought our referral would be 8 months at MOST. When I came to your web site and realized for the first time it would be YEARS, I went through a LOT of anguish. Wailing, crying, denying, angering and thrashing around my house over the unfairness of it all. My first daughter will be older, I will be older, I will have to put everything on hold, etc. etc. I don’t wish that on anyone.
I don’t know what a fair resolution to this will be but at least the light is shining on this situation. Thanks from me to you, RQ. I’ll be so interested to see how this all turns out for everyone. Meanwhile, my family and I continue to wait it out.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
the concept of “what is fair” often is culturally based. From a CHiense perspective, it may seem unfair that agencies who have cultivated (legally) a better relationship and track record with CCAA must be treated the same as agencies who have not.
‘the same as’ is not synonymous with ‘fair’ in all circumstances, in all cultures.
Obviosuly this is a concern–and we all want grounds for preferential treatment to be legal (e.g. not mroe money changing hands under tables), so the ‘Report a COncern’ suggestions seems gine. It’s a concern.
But it’s not at this point illegal, and “unfair” is too wobbly a term to use without clear grounds or definition.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I agree that I don’t think much can be done about this — especially what has happened in the past. I’m sure many agencies have been made aware of this, and I have no doubt that many will make sure this “preferential” treatment is put out in the open.
And while some people might be frustrated that their little “too-good-to-be-true” secret is out in the open, I would imagine that many will also feel a bit of relief at not having to keep their agency’s secrets anymore. I doubt anyone will “shoot the messenger” — so I think you’re safe, RQ.
I will say, as I’ve said all along, that I would mis-trust any agency that tells it’s clients to keep quiet about referrals and/or the timeline. If I had interviewed an agency and knew this was their policy (or even had a hint that this was their policy) I would have stayed far, far away from them.
Referrals, just as the birth of a child, are blessed events. They are meant to be shared, with joyous enthusiasm…. they are not something to be kept quiet and hidden. I want my daughter to know that we were excited to get her referral and share it with everyone, not told by our agency to keep it quiet. Secrets often imply shame and that makes sense in this scenario also.
Another new batch of referrals should be arriving soon. I can’t wait to see the parents of these lovely children shout it from the rooftops (or at least shout it out in cyber-space). We all want to celebrate with you over your joyous news!!
September 26th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
RQ,
I’ve been called a lot of things, but I think paranoid is one of the nicest. Heh!
I agree that it is in everyone’s best interest that the China program have no “hint of corruption”. Apparently, I left out the part where I agreed with your original assessment that the proper channels are now handling this situation. My intent was to add that I didn’t think it was wise at this point to bring in every other agency that we could think of (especially one that might insult the Chinese government with charges of bribery).
After over two years of waiting and knowing with some reasonable assurance (according to this site) that our daughter has already been referred to us, any possible threat to our adoption is enough to raise my blood pressure.
Your site provides an incredible service in a situation lacking in information. Please keep the data flowing and I will try to reign in my paranoia.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I’m not sure how the CCAA process works: Can an individual worker favor an individual agency without their supervisor knowing about it? What is the highest level this favoring would be known at (or directed from)?
Drew
LID 4-6-06
September 26th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I don’t know, maybe.
The director signs off on all files, but I don’t know if the LID is shown on what he signs off on. I suppose it is feasible that someone could slide them in.
But, from what I understand, things are counted and recounted and accounted for in so many ways that I think multiple people at the CCAA would have to know that “oh, those files were already mailed, no need to go looking for them”.
But that’s just speculation, I don’t really know.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Hi, Rumor Queen:
Re: “What to Do”
It is a moot point.
September 26th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
“I understand that the waiting clients of this agency are very angry with me for bringing this matter to light.â€
CRY ME A FREAKIN’ RIVER!!!!
When we were 27 someone told us there was an agency that could “get us a baby” from China before we were 30. We didn’t go with them. We waited 3 MORE YEARS to be able to start our paperwork.
When our paperwork went over, the wait was 6 months for a referral. When we finally meet our daughter, it will have been 30 MONTHS after our paperwork went over. That’s what we have gotten for doing the right thing, so I have ZERO SYMPATHY for anyone who thought they would have a short wait by short-circuiting the system and now . . . gasp . . . they have to wait like everyone else! Shut up!
September 26th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Not trying to change the subject of the topic at hand, because I certainly do NOT feel that these folks should be crying the blues over being outed (at least not publically).
I wrote to the company with the red faced crying baby on the homepage, here is the response;
Thank you for your email and I will definately consider your comments
in our next advertising campaign. This ad will be up in a few more
days and we will then start our new ad with our happy baby. Wait
until you see how she shines when she is happy (which is almost all of
the time!). That will be in our phase 2 ad campaign on
ChinaAdoptTalk.org.
Thanks again.
September 26th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Just want to put my “vote” out there to LEAVE IT! Let’s not jeapordize our families.
I realize that many people think it won’t but, let’s face it, we’re never sure what China might do. Let’s NOT risk our lives.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Thank you RQ for bringing this matter to the notice of people/agencies who can do something about it. If, after due investigation, nothing is found to be amiss, then that will be the end of the matter. But I think for the sake of the good reputation of the Chinese adoption system, which has always been held high as a model of how to do things and lauded for its lack of corruption, that an investigation is warrented.
I’m sorry that you’ve had to put up with nasty, entitled emails from clients of the Mystery Agency, just send them straight to the deleted file, that’s all they are worth.
Keep up the good work
Gertiesquidge
UK LID 10th August 2007
http://offtochinaoneday.blogspot.com/
September 26th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
One of the things I’ve wondered about while we’ve been waiting is why the various agencys haven’t created a group made up with all the agencys to have a political voice in Washington when it came to things like, incresse in US fees, and creat a greater lobbying party to interceaede on the goverments involved in international adoption. One of the other things that we see now is to keep watch on the ones who try t circumnavigate the system. m
September 26th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
I realized that I wasn’t explicit in stating that I do appreciate RQ that you bring these issues to light. I also second the poster who stated that even though it is you alone who receives all of the negative PM’s you have quite the advocacy group to fall back on. Thanks for all you do!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Question , a bit off the topic sorry. I heard that China hsa opened IA to all orphanages in China, And did I hear somewhere that China was training another batch of people to work at the CCAA? Could this change the math, fingers crossed, on times? M
September 26th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Just realized that my 2:45 could be read two ways, and I want to clarify that it was not directed at RQ.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I hope they lose their referrals and have to get re-Logged in and start from scratch.
I’ve read enough to see they knew what was going on…and I’m not convinced it did not include extra $$$$.
Everyone knows when you gamble sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose…. I hope they lose.
Before anyone says that this will hurt the children, I’m sure CCAA could surprise some families (who waited!) with an unexpected referral.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
I don’t know - I haven’t heard anything that makes me believe that this agency or their clients necessarily did anything wrong. I personally hope they are vindicated in the end. For one thing, that will mean that the speculated corruption as it relates to this issue is not happening, and for another, I feel like they are being sentenced before the trial.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Thank you RQ, for both your guidance and for any research/action you have undertaken on behalf of this community regarding the “Golden Agency.” I imagine it is going to be really tough for those people who are with the agency and expecting something they may not get now. Yes, many of us have had our expectations go from 6 mos to years (myself included), but knowing full well how that feels, I have empathy for those who may soon get some bad news. And I agree, taking away already issued referrals is definitely not called for.
I don’t know if what the Golden Agency has been doing is illegal, but it is definitely unethical. Not to be too pedantic, but rules for behavior don’t have to be written and documented before breaking them can be considered immoral and/or unethical. To be considered unethical one must “not conform to approved standards of social or professional behavior” (dictionary definition). I think it is has been made abundantly clear that this social community does not believe that our moral standard is being met by the agency in question. I am really grateful that this has been brought to light.
JB
02/09/06
September 26th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
A quick question to those that want to keep quiet…..not rock the boat…..let the secret stay a secret…..etc..
How is that different then what the families of that agency HAVE been doing?
We all want our babies. Yet when we only worry how “rocking the boat” will effect us, we’re doing the same thing that the people that kept their “silence” we doing………keeping quiet to benefit ourselves. I’m not sure we can complain about those families, if we’re quick to do the same thing.
At the very least, an explantion needs to be offered. If the agencies have been wrong to tell us that everyone “waits in the same line”, when that wasn’t something promised by the CCAA, then we should know (especially if it was just based on “past experience”, not an actual policy). If an agency is allowed to slick the palms at the CCAA, we should be offered that explanation.
Because the process didn’t begin with my adoption and it won’t end with my adoption. I have to keep in mind the families that are just starting this process, and the babies that will be born someday and need a home. I think this should be investigated REGARDLESS of what it may or may not mean for me, because this effects many families, not just my adoption.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Are any of the “mystery” agency clients reading this board and, if so, are any willing to discuss what they knew and when they knew it? I mean, the agency’s cover is blown, so why not give the rest of us some information so we can begin to process this.
You could probably do it anonymously or semi-anonymously, I’d bet. There are a lot of people who would love to know what has been going on and for how long.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I am afraid that too big of a deal is being made of this. If the CCAA finds out through the COA or an agency, there’s no telling what to do. I think that for everyone’s sake that we need to play it safe. Otherwise China may stop their international program altogether. My suggestion is to just be quiet on this one. We are waiting too. Our LID is 9/5/6.
We want a child from China even if the wait is loooooong.
Do we know the history of this agency whose people got referrals and who had LIDs in Feb 2006? Perhaps they didn’t get referrals in the past when they should have and the CCAA is just making up for that.
Just my thoughts,
Ann
September 26th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Skittles - I have to say that is an excellent idea - hadn’t thought of it but now I second your wondering of why it hasn’t happened!!!
AT
September 26th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
RQ~ do we have any info at all about the WHY??? Why was this agency being given preferential treatment? I’ve read that the agency supposedly is owned/run by a chinese person but so are many of them.
That’s what concerns me. I have always been pretty proud to say that we were involved in a program that was “fair” –this is very, very upsetting to me.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Thanks Almost, I wonder how many IA kids there are in the country from over the yeas? Enough to make a senator sit up and take notice I think!
September 26th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
skittles-
I’ve heard of more people being trained more times than I can count…ranks up there with the “once they move it’ll all get better” storyline!
And as to more orphanages being open to IA…well, quota baby, quota.
Or ceiling or whatever you want to call it, that the CCAA denies.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Posted on my agencies website today (China only, very conservative) which won’t tell you anything you don’t already know:
“We have learned that the CCAA is working on the next set of matches. We do not have any additional information at this time.
We will update this site as soon as we hear any new information.”
September 26th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
What kills me is that we hope CCAA will make it to Dec 05, 2005 with this next batch, however there are some out there that have already received their referrals with a mid Feb 2006 LID. It breaks my heart. If this wait alone hasn’t been hard enough, but to find this out is a very big blow to someone who is already feeling powerless in what this seems to have become; a never ending wait.
LID 03/29/06
September 26th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
I don’t get the “working on referrals” if they have been matched months in advance?????
Adomom
12/5/05
September 26th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
RQ,
WHy are the rumors so quiet this month? Do you recall a time when the rumors were this quiet before?
September 26th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I agree with you completly, RQ. I think a lot of people keep saying “don’t stir the pot” because of fear. I think this fear is completly irrational, the CCAA will not close down the entire IA because we are on a site discussing what should or should not be done about the situation. A few people have said, “you never know what the CCAA will do, why risk it?” They are correct on one hand, that we do not know what the CCAA will do, I think we all realize that. As for “why risk it?” If something under-handed is going on, I want to do everything in my power to alert the right people, and stop it. I don’t understand how people can be so complacent about a *possibly* corrupt situation.
As for people being angry with RQ about posting this… &%# out of luck for them. The sense of entitlement is a little mind boggling for me to grasp. How could these people feel that they rightfully deserve a referral years before other people in their LID month? Hm. Too bad for them is all I can say. I do not think, however, that families already referred should have their referrals taken away. That won’t help the situation, and it would be hell for the families.
If you hear anything else about what other agencies are saying about it, when they hear about it from clients, I would love to hear!
September 26th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
I have an idea, to keep it “fair”. Everyone else has referrals done until Feb 06.. to catch up.
September 26th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Working on referrals could just as easily mean they are getting them packaged and ready to be sent. This doesn’t imply they are currently matching. I have no idea if it is true that people are matched months in advance or where that information came from, but it sounds like pure rumor to me. I know children as young as 6m of age have been referred,which is the cutoff as China does not refer under that age, so it seems unlikely to me that they would match a family with a child months prior that was not 6m of age or older. Just my thoughts.
Either way, my agency (as I mentioned) is extremely conservative and will only post KNOWN fact, and doesn’t ever state anything they don’t know as fact. It is one of the things I most appreciate about them.
September 26th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
If people are getting mad at RQ for bringing this story to light because they are with the “Golden Agency,” that rather incriminates them doesn’t it? Doesn’t it suggest there really is something to this story–that some people expected to be treated differently than others?
September 26th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Skittles wrote: “One of the things I’ve wondered about while we’ve been waiting is why the various agencys haven’t created a group made up with all the agencys to have a political voice in Washington…”
There IS a very strong adoption agency lobby in the US - JCICS. They work very hard for their clients (American adoption agencies). Like all lobbyists, their loyalties are to their clients, fighting for them, not us. As a matter of fact, the U.S. Hague implementation was “tweaked” to be advantageous to the agencies via the strong lobbying of JCICS. Google Ethica, then, on Ethica’s home page, look about halfway down for the “Ethica’s Comments on Hague Regulations.” It’s an eye-opener, to say the least.
September 26th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Some babies are referred at five months, but it is very, very rare. The idea that matching is done months is advance is a rumor. My friend said she asked her daughter’s orphanage director and he said that they send babie’s files when they are around 5-6 months old. You can see on most referral packets that this is when the referral pictures are taken, so it makes sense. I do think the quietness is a bit unusual for this time of month, but it’s nothing to really be concerned with. Although I know all of you LID in early Dec. are probably dying!! Hang in there, if you aren’t in this month, I think you will definitly be in next month.
September 26th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
RQ~
A poll might be interesting to see where people fall on this issue…not that it changes anything, just a thought.
Thank you for always handling things with class. We’d be lost without you! I apprieciate having a place to hear from the passionate, wise folks in the China adoption community. Although I don’t always agree with everyone, you all make me look at both sides of a situation. Thanks!
LID May 10, 2006
September 26th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
RQ- I will ask again what someone else just asked—Why are the rumors so quiet this month? This is so odd–and it’s making me nervous! I’m LID 11/30, and even though most people say I should be next, the fact that things are so quiet is making me worried that they might be doing the “2 days of referrals” thing again this month. I mean, it’s almost the 27th of the month–shouldn’t they be mailing them soon? So, shouldn’t we be hearing something?????? Give us SOMETHING to chew on–PLEASE!!!
September 26th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
I don’t think the fear is irrational at all!!
China can very easily, and very quickly close it’s doors. Contrairy to popular belief, China does NOT need IA in order to be a rising, wealthy country. It already is becomming one, regardless of IA monetary gain.
If questioned, CCAA could easily become insulted and view it as an attack on their country’s integrety. They do not need us (adoptive parents) as much as we need them, or they would be doing many more referrals, all around.
It’s a very REAL concern that China could close it’s doors.
September 26th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
c’mon. if your agency called you and told you your referral came in early and you had a 2/06 LID would you really turn it down? and if they told you they had a special relationship with the ccaa and you would get your referral early because of it would we really not go with that agency because we feel that it’s not fair to everyone else?? we are all in so much pain it’s hard for me to believe that the majority of us would choose the moral high ground.
LID 7/06
September 26th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
goingtochina08-
What’s happening is NOT necessarily corruption. Kidnapping babies and selling them on the blackmarket is corruption. Sending referrals out of turn is not. It’s apparently unfair to most people, to the point of being bitter and angry about getting theirs too, but it is not corrupt.
However, as I last posted, CCAA can easily view the US as thinking that it’s corruption.
And BTW, I’m not with the agency in question, but I am angry that this is being so forcefully exposed.
September 26th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
KarenInCa - Sorry but the Facts just don’t support you.
September 26th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
It’s hard for all of us but when it’s all said and done - those people need to get in line like the rest of us. We all want our babies home as soon as possible. Those who are jumping the line need to get back in line regardless of being told they may get their children months ahead of everyone else. There’s no excuse for it. Get in line like everyone else and wait!
September 26th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
I doubt it though. One agency getting special treatment is a much smaller news story than the entire China program shutting down b/c of inproprieties. I just don’t see that happening.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
I asked before and am asking again. Do I think this is fair, no, but show me the rule that is broken.
What facts support this is corrupt and illegal.
Where is the rule that China does FIFO, first in first out regarding LIDs. That they have historically done so does not make it a rule.
Where can I go to see, China does referrals in order of LID? Please could someone show me. I know their old rules, I know their new rules. I know where to find them. Where is the order of LID rule.
Is it fair for newer LIDs to go before older. No. But it is a huge leap to corruption and illegal.
Does McCarthy-ism mean anything to anyone.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
I really tried hard this time to not respond…I PROMISE!!!! But alas here I am…
Ok…if no one else is going to say it…I am. Go ahead judge me people…
If my agency called me up and said your referral is going to come early…we have a special blah blah….relationship with the CCAA…(I have a June 06 LID) Folks…let me tell ya right here and right now….I AM PACK’IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now if I knew it was illegal or if they were breaking rules…I would not do it….I would never want to be apart of hurting the program….but I would gladly take it if that agency had a special legal loop hole….
Now…its pretty obvious to me that my agency does not have that relationship and that being said….again…there is nothing I can do….and if they are just smarter than the rest…so be it.
I have already adjusted to this wait…and currently working on another adoption…so…its all good here.
I am glad the cats outta the bag and maybe people can get to the bottom of it… and until then…life moves on….and I am still a June 06er doing my time….however long that is.
Now see…that wasn’t sooooo bad was it?? Honest but gentle…. Maybe I can hold myself together till the end.
~Linda
September 26th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Bornfromtheheart~
I love the way you think!
LID - 2/28/06 :)
September 26th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
an interesting link. I encourage everyone on all sides of the argument and those in the grey area inbetween to read it.
I hope it’s ok to drop a link in. If not, sorry (I looked but didn’t see anything in the rules about it).
http://www.ethicanet.org/item.php?recordid=whyaparents
It’s some good food for thought about ethics and adoptions.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Linda- Do you really think that you would not be suspicious if out of the blue your agency calls you with an early referral…and wouldn’t you want to know why, adn wouldn’t you want to scream it from the rooftops?
And that is not how I understand it has happened. The way that I understand it is that these people knew way before their referral and maybe at the time they signed (or before) with this agency that the agency had something different about their arrival of referrals, maybe even something else different about this agency (their fees? the paperwork? who knows?). Anyway, the agency asking the PAPs to keep hush hush about it tells me that something was wrong, why else did they not want US to find out about it? It just does not have the feeling of “trustiness” about it.
And in this BIG and legal process (of IA adoption), I want to only deal with very trusty people!
September 26th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
KarenInCa,
I never said this situation was definitly corruption. I said it *may* be and that’s why so many people want to learn more about it, and to some that means talking to their agencys. And I agree with p12, the facts don’t support you. The CCAA (IMO) will never close it’s doors because of a discussion about something questionable going on. And I am also full aware that China doesn’t rely on IA to become wealthy and prosperous, that thought is laughable. There are, however, a lot of reasons why they wouldn’t randomly shut their doors, but money isn’t one of them.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
There is one thing the CCAA could do, and that is be directed to choose the countries with which they deal. If things get “hot”, and US agencies request too much information all at once, ie/ investigating this possibility, isn’t it within their Govt’s power to choose where their children go to?
Just a thought.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
asiwait,
In my early LID days (before I found RQ and learned about how the review and matching process worked), but after I heard that the wait had gone up to about 10 months!, I had a little fantasy. I dreamed ourdossier had fallen to the floor and opened up. One of the CCAA workers casually looked at the document and thought they had the perfect baby for us, so they moved us to the front of the line. (By the way, in my fantasy, everyone in our travel group was also moved.) Fair? Absolutely not!! Likely? Even more not. If it had happened, would I have felt guilty? Yup! Would I have refused the referral because of others? No way!!!
September 26th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
As a 11/30 Lidder, my wish on the full moon tonite, is that this topic won’t be top of the RQ blog tommorrow.
Here’s hoping for some rumors.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
magpiesmom- Thank you for posting that link. I think everyone needs to take a moment to read that.
DragonMom- I agree, let’s get some rumors going.
Wendy
LID 12/27/05
September 26th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
What a debarkle! Thank goodness here in Australia we have no choice of Agency!!!
Regardless how people have received their referrals, it would be devasting to retract them.
I hope that everyone’s minds are put at ease soon, regarding the allocation of referrals.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Here’s to hearing some rumors tomorrow! NOB! Heh. I haven’t said that in so long. I got used to them only getting 3-7 days batches and their was never any chance of them getting to the end of them month (unless they were almost done with the month - like now). Say it with me: “NOB!!!!” :-)
September 26th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
I think we need to remember this is a communist country and they can do whatever they want. To ask China to admit to anything and lose face is not smart.
It is only on U.S. side that we can make a difference and I believe the damage has been done to this agency. I think by bringing this too light and having the folks who have been benefiting from this very upset is telling.
I see only 2 choices, tell your agency and they will hopefully work behind the scenes to create a level playing field and also as RQ suggests going to Accrediation. Everything else is a waste of time and will only anger China. This program is made available at their pleasure.
Regarding the waiting families of this agency…Their fate is not in our hands. We have no say in them getting earlier referrals or moving into our line.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:04 am
asiwait says: “Do you really think that you would not be suspicious if out of the blue your agency calls you with an early referral…and wouldn’t you want to know why, adn wouldn’t you want to scream it from the rooftops?”
If my agency called with my referral “out of the blue,” I would ask questions but probably chalk it up to a CCAA leak/mistake like the Spain-December thing we heard about, because no one has led me to believe I am getting any special favors and I have not paid anyone for favors. I would make sure no one was holding me to confidentiality (and if they tried, I would be asking a lot more questions). Then I would take the referral and scream from the rooftops.
Reading between the lines a little, my understanding is that clients of the Mystery Agency knew they could get referrals ahead of everyone else. I am still undecided on the question or corruption or unethical adoption in that case - in part because we don’t actually know if more money was paid for jumping the line. I still don’t feel bad if they now have to wait like the rest of us. I’m just glad I’m not in that situation, for better or for worse.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:38 am
If my agency called today and said we have a referral for you - one of my first questions after coming to, would have to be how did this happen followed by what about the people who were logged in before me? By accepting the referral I would basically be saying the hell with everyone else. Granted I don’t know anyone on this board on a personal level but I have to believe those who are in front of me have experienced the frustration and utter sadness that I have during this process. One way to look at it is “well I just got lucky and I didn’t ask for this so it’s not really wrong”. I still think I wouldn’t be able to do it - at some point my selfishness would come back to bite me. This is just my opinion and not a response to those who feel otherwise.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
RQ - yes, I misunderstood about the US and Haag.
In my country agencies aren’t “state owned” either, but they are very, very careful to stick to the rules (almost too careful, in my opinion) and not to jeapodize their relationship to the CCAA. And they are non-profit organizations, which I believe is the only way to do it. In other word, bribing for earlier referrals just could never happen. And us clients paying more to get prefered treatment neither. But I’m in a very small country as well, with the whole country recieving about as much referrals as the spoken of agency or even less per month. So, of course it is disturbing.
But nonetheless, I agree with those saying that the CCAA has the full right to do as they like. And I certainly do agree that “fair” is a rather abstract and very relative word. It is not fair that we in western countries lead the good life we do, compared to Africa and much of Asia, for example, either. It is not fair that the chinese birth mother are not allowed/able to to keep their children. In that context what happened here is just not even worth mentioning it. Life on this earth is unfair (if fair means “the same for every one”), has always been and will always be. Fair being “the same for every one” would be communismns parole, and I think we all have an opinion about how well that works, history has shown that clear enough. No - “fair” is really not the word to use here!
That said, I agree as well that the CCAA either should do it one way (referrals not according to a “line”) or the other (in line) and stick to it - or at least say that they roughly follow the line and exceptions do happen. Then everyone has to be prepared for them. I also agree that referrals should be sent as far as they have been matched, whole LIDs covered or not, and even if some matchers are month ahead others. I would regard that as fair. The only thing that stinks in this case is the secrecy about it.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:45 am
RQ–thank you for doing what you do!!
I guess the main thing that make me upset in this, is that the agency we chose makes a statement in their literature and on their website about agencies that claim to have faster referrals:
“Our China process is faster than other agencies.
Wrong. One of the best things about the China Center of Adoption Affairs is that it treats all agencies, big or small, equally in terms of the child match timeframe.”
Note the part that says one of the best things about CCAA is that it treats all agencies, big or small, equally in terms of the child match timeframes.
This was part of our decision choosing China in the first place.
All of this makes me really sad. I don’t think parents should loose referrals, they should loose some of the entitlement attitude. But all in all I feel let down by China. Maybe my agency was misinformed when they made this statement.
I think that after reading this statement (actually by several agencies) we wouldn’t have choosen the “golden agency” b/c we would have thought something was up and that they weren’t telling the truth.
One question I have is in regard to people with the “G.A” paying more. I read in one spot as much as 3xs the amount of other agencies. That smacks of something not right IMHO.