China’s Stolen Children
There is a show out called China’s Stolen Children. This show does not involve the IA community. It is about the black market within China. Babies stolen and sold for less than the equivalent of three hundred dollars. These babies never come anywhere close to a government run orphanage, they are kidnapped from their parents and then sold to families inside of China wanting children.
The show originally aired last year in parts of Europe, and apparently HBO has bought the rights to the show and plans to air it during the Olympics.
You can read about the show here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1126492/plotsummary
I wonder if this could be what the Netherlands reporter is talking about? This is certainly a problem, and one that the government in China needs to deal with, but it is not a part of the government run orphanages, and does not influence international adoption.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:16 am
The reporter is talking about is not a black market but about all !!!!! of the run orphanage bij the chinese governement in whole china. On friday our governement will maybe stop the adoption form China and will talked about this also with the minsters in Europe. I think and expect that the CCAA can explain dat the reporter is wrong. Our governement shall ask China questions about this item.
Maybe can somebody else from the nethrelands (inneke of Karen) explan in better englisch than I what is happening.
greetings Helen (LID 20-01-06)
March 12th, 2008 at 8:22 am
To explain again: it is not about the black market, but about all the run orphanages from whole china. If this is true than this will influence on international adoption!!!!!!! But I think this is not true. I Think China is taken good care of all there children. I can not believe this.
Helen
March 12th, 2008 at 8:27 am
I just read in the previous item “news form the netherlands”that karen and inneke have explain the situation. I have not seen this when i was writing the last two items.
Helen
March 12th, 2008 at 8:57 am
HBO broadcasting during the olympics! Really, why do people go out of their way to annoy? Do journalists really think they are doing the noble thing here? I’m sure they some places will also broadcast that other slanted piece, the Dying Rooms - or other such title. It was so long ago…… I can’t remember the title.
The whole of China? There are 1.6 billion Chinese. Surely some will do something inappropriate. You know how long it would take and how many people would be needed/including translators to determine if it were a problem throughout all orphanages in China?
March 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Last year a Danish TV-reporter dug up a story on corruption in adoptions from India. The story turned out to be false, and manipulated. It had the effect of stopping adoptions from India to Denmark for months.
In this case, I wonder if teh reporter claims to uncover a story of IA involving stolen children specifically, or if he is creating a more general sense of a huge problem?
March 12th, 2008 at 9:10 am
@flowerpower: The story here (in The Netherlands) is specifically about government involvement in taking children from chinese parents, putting them in homes, and have them adopted, before the real parents have a chance to get their child back (usually after having to pay a huge fine, which can take a ling time).
Whether this is a true story or not is difficult to estimate, but the broadcast shows real people telling their story, and the Chinese government is known to ‘deny until proven wrong’.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I haven’t seen the story and can’t offer an opinion. Frankly, I’m quite confused right now. Certainly, reporting can be biased, incorrect, and irresponsible. All that said, I guess my question is, if there’s any truth to corruption within the China IA system (again, just a theoretical question) - would we want to know about it? My answer to myself, painfully, is yes I would want to know.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am
If I can summarize what the several commenters from Holland are saying:
–The show has the Chinese police removing second children from parents, and putting them in orphanages to be adopted out, including abroad.
–The show has kidnappers taking children and selling them to orphanages, again to be adopted out, including abroad.
–Holland is considering halting adoptions from China.
Though I haven’t seen the show, none of these points seem unreasonable or unexpected. We have known that enforcement of the one-child policy involves fines and removal of children from parents. We have known that kidnapping occurs routinely across China, and that there is an entire private detective industry devoted to attempting to locate kidnapped children. The only new or unexpected point is that orphanages are implicated in buying kidnapped children, which we had hoped was cracked-down upon by the Chinese government.
The orphanage fee alone is now US$5,000. A skilled professional (doctor, lawyer) in Beijing makes about US$3,000 per year in salary. The equivalent salary in the U.S. might be $200,000. So keep in mind that when you go to the orphanage, you are handing over the purchasing power equivalent of US$300,000 in cash, in small unmarked bills, to the orphanage director.
If there was a system like that in North America - where orphanage directors received $300,000 in cash in exchange for children - do you think there would be corruption?
March 12th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I can’t really see that this is what the Netherlands reporter was talking about…its bad, but seems to be legal - the selling of ones child to another Chinese couple. It really isnt anything to do with IA, and the children dont go anywhere near the SWIs.
And when a child was stolen or kidnapped to be sold for profit, it wasnt babies or toddlers that were taken - It was young boys (about 4 upwards) for families who didnt want to bother with the mess of an infant/toddler, or teenage girls for brides, part due to the shortage of women, but also because if you bought a bride, you didnt have to bother paying a dowry, or giving her gifts and courting her.
It seemed that it was very difficult for the seller to sell a baby - a teenage girl wanted to sell her newborn daughter, and it took MONTHS for him to find a buyer.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Somebody quoted a bit of that story on one my sites yesterday, Have not read this take on it yet but yesterday’s also had the reporter talking about a scandal in Hunan last year, So if it’s the scandal from 3 years ago I would question how thought out and reasearched this is. Another news story that I came across was that people in Vietnam have smuggling babies into China for the black market, while another story had Chinese mothers going across the boarder to have their babies. How whacked is this world? Makes my head spin.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Netherlands Families-
Try not to panic just yet. I know that it’s easier said than done, but try to let the dust settle and find out what is really going to happen. It may be nothing more than sensational journalism, and your government will see that. Unfortunately, there are many unethical journalists who will do anything to dig up dirt, real or not, to drum up panic and sell a story; especially around an event like the Olympics. I’m actually a little disappointed in HBO for airing this during the Olympics. So much for world unity during the Olympic games.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:13 am
I totally agree with you FindingHope. In my opinion, with the Olympics approaching, I think we will see misinformation circulate by some journalists eager to find THE “breaking news”! Weird world…
March 12th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Unafraid adopter I have to tell you when we went in the summer to adopt our son - we did not hand 3,000 USD in unmarked Chinese currency to an orphanage director.
They don’t even let you go to the orphanages for the most part. If they do it’s after all the paperwork and the fees.
We went with 5 other families to a office building, which clearly listed what it was used for in English - I can’t read Chinese writing that was underneath…. where 4 different orphanage directors and other caregivers came with the 6 children to be adopted. I saw pictures of this same facility from a few years before on another blog. Anyway our guide handed the money over to the office workers, as we did even more paperwork, promising to love the child and promising never to be cruel to the child or abandon him/her. The money was checked to make sure it wasn’t counterfit and counted on one of those machines you see everywhere.
The government keeps tabs on the flow of this money. The money went through office middlemen. The CCAA knows who’s adopting from where. The orphanage doesn’t place the kids, the CCAA does.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Did anybody see the NY Times article yesterday about a scandal involving Guatelmalan adoptions? Evidently, a number of birthmoms working with one agency had falsified their identities. In one case at least, a baby who is already here in the U.S. with her adoptive parents, and is a citizen now, may have to be returned to Guatemala. That is pretty scary.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:31 am
this programme aired in the uk about 6 months ago, i watched and recorded it to be sure that it didn’t involve intercountry adoption, it didn’t involve intercountry adoption it was children ,mainly boys being sold to other families within china.
it put my mind at rest as we obviously wouldn’t want a child forcibly removed from its loving parents for our own gains. i certainly don’t recall any orphanages being involved, as prospective intercountry adopters i think we would remember that bit! the main focus was on a baby broker who worked independently even selling his own son, a couple selling their daughter as they had no permit, and a couple looking for their stolen child.
children are stolen all over the world, even in our wealthier countries, it doesn’t always mean we have corrupt governments or that adoptions should be stopped,some things are just beyond our control, what would happen to all the genuinely abandoned children, the answer- they would grow up sad and alone, never having felt the love and warmth of family, under stimulated and feeling worthless.
i feel sure our governments will take no action on this documentary as it has no relavence to intercountry adoption, there has been no mention of chinese adoptions being stopped by the uk government where i am.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Thanx Findinghope it was really shocking and confusing to see the docu.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:45 am
I agree with unafraid adopter that the show is not just about the black market but about the whole system of children in China from the one child policy, to international adoption and to the black market.
The black market has come about because Chinese citizens can not adopt in China because the orphanages make more money through International Adoption. The black market does not only deal with stolen children but also parents who have to sell or abandon their children because they can not afford the fine they will face if their pregnancy or child is found out, or because they do not qualify for a license to have a child yet because they are too young, or because they are not married yet.
What shocked but did not surprise me was how parents bartered over a price for the children they were selling. I don’t think that I would have the heart for it, but then again I wasn’t raised in that culture.
The black market is in existence because we have taken the Chinese person’s ability away to adopt domestically. The international adoption market is in existence because of the one child policy. The one child policy is in existence because a country doesn’t know how to control its population growth. It’s all very simple, but extremely sad!
Kristine
March 12th, 2008 at 10:52 am
KMS
We went twice to adopt our two daughters and both time the currency was handed over directly to the orphanage director and it did NOT touch the hand of a government official. In fact, the CCAA only gets a very small portion of the $3000 at the time, something like $200-300.
If you consider the value of the money handed over based on Unafraid Adopter’s comments and based on the fact that many Chinese FAMILIES live on 4000 yuan a year, why isn’t the $3000-5000 enough to ensure that very best care for our children prior to adoption. Given those figures you would think that the orphanages would be stocked with staff on a ratio of 1 to 2 children. So what happens with ALL that money? One orphanage got $500 000 US a few years ago, but yet the kids continue to come out with very severe neglect and malnourishment even though they are part of the LWB Feeding Program.
I think the answer is as Unafraid Adopter said……Corruption.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Is there anyway that we can ask HBO not to air this show at least until it is authenticated?
March 12th, 2008 at 11:27 am
3,000 is roughly 24,000 Chinese Currency. I am sure purchashing power is better in China, but 300,000 is stretching it.
Do you really think that 10,000 children are all there are who need homes annually. Divide it up, update buildings and it still doesn’t feed all or give medical care, etc….
If the director gets the 3,000, then the CCAA still will go after their share. The CCAA is in the control of the placements. Money is also redirected toward other orphanages. We don’t even know their true number. Or the number of orphans out there.
I agree with the other poster, that these things unfortunately can even happen in more prosperous nations, like UK and US. It’s not necessarily indicative of the whole system.
If you see it as that corrupt, why go back?
Kristine
March 12th, 2008 at 11:33 am
This program is NOT what the Netherland reporter was referring to. This has the potential to not just effect Netherland families. I believe it needs to be looked into from all countries.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I think we do have a problem here in the Netherlands. Most of the info shown yesterday was not new to me, but..it is the first time that, if this is all true , even though the parents were known, the police rapport told that the child was found, parents onknown. This is NOT conform the Hage adoption convention. Parents have to sign to give up their children. We all have papers telling that our kids were found, but maybe they were not. Maybe the goverment forced the parents to give up their child, told them that they could get it back when they payed they fine . And then gave that child up for IA.
If this happened, how often?
I think that if the netherlands stop IA from China, China will never allow us to adopt from china again.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
K_oickle
China is doing more domestic adoptions. This one of the many reasons for the slowdown. Another point, there are abandoned babies in other countries besides China who do not have the one child policy. I read that China will have 200 million people who who be in their child bearing years. Their country simply cannot handle this kind of population growth. I’ve said it before, noone wants to see abandoned children anywhere in the world!! The reality is, it happens everywhere!! We are not adopting from China because we feel “sorry” for these children. We are adopting beause we want a family. If it wasn’t for international adoption my heart breaks for all the children who would grow up in an orphanage. People who adopt want to do the right thing. Look at how much we have to go through. I wish these requirements were for everyone having children. Look at the people here in the U.S. who have 2, 3, 4 children and should not have one!!
March 12th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Mizzy-
Again, as hard as it may be, we need to wait for responses to this before we let ourselves get carried away. There are some very frightening places that our thoughts can take us, and it’s far too premature to even think about going there. As RQ stated, there may very well be a black market in China (which, of course, needs be dealt with). But it is completely seperate from government run orphanages. The minute we start thinking that our children already home may have been stolen, we’re all in big trouble. Try to hang in there until we have more information.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
KMS
I won’t argue the $ numbers with you, because I don’t think that we as foreigners have any clue as to how far a yuan can go. I have Chinese friends who compare who got the best deal on apples and it is just matter of a few mao off (fractions of one cent). Therefore I think the $300 000 amount mentioned by Unafraid Adopter is not a direct currency exchange but more so a statement as to the purchasing power of the money we hand over.
Also we all have to be careful that we don’t assume the experience that we have had is true of everyone’s but that we understand that many people have had very different experiences. So when we refer to what happened to us…..it is one experience among thousands. We have to be open to hear the stories of everyone.
You also ask, “If you see it as that corrupt, why go back?”. Well I didn’t start to see the truths until after our last adoption. Do I feel guilty contributing to the conruption and ongoing faulty system….most definitely. After our last adoption was when I was ready to listen to other people’s experiences and started to put the pieces together. I also have a few more Chinese friends and they have informed me of some truths. Although these truths were difficult to hear.
I think the better question would be, “Would you go back again knowing the corruption related to International Adoption?” The answer is clearly NO, not to adopt! I would go back to share whatever I can and I would go back to be sure to connect my daughters to their culture and their heritage.
I love China for all that is wonderful and beautiful, but I don’t begin to say I understand China at all. I also love my country, but there is corruption here that I don’t begin to understand and I hope that with time I will become wiser. I also don’t want to stick my head in the ground a pretend that the corruption doesn’t exist. Once you know of a wrong, you have to do all you can to correct it and bring it to light.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I also watched Chinas stolen childrern in the UK a few months ago and this does not look like the same programme to me, If it was the same programme I would not be so concerned . I have part watched the Dutch programme on the internet obviously it is in Dutch but it does not look like the same programme.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Finding Hope: I’m not talking about the black market issue. This was something different. This was the goverment taking away children because their parents could not pay the fine. They brought those kids to orphanages and when the parents went looking for their kids, they were already adopted. I think it is important to investigate this but i’m also aware that China might not like that and end adoption to the netherlands.
We have three agencies that do china adoptions. Two of them asked our department of justice to investigate this. I think there is a real possibility that our goverment will decide to stop China adoptions for as long as the investigation will last. And i’m not so sure that china will allow holland after that to restart the IA from China again. I’m not over reacting, I think this is a realistic option, based on everything I’ve heard and read these past 2 days.
Our goverment has done this before. we have no more adoption programs from Vietnam, S korea etc anymore.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Our agency have news on their site. Our agency is the biggest in the netherlands. There will come an international investigation. So it will affect international adoption if the evidence of the reporter is true that the orphanages run bij the chinese governement take money from people who brings the children to the orphanage.
My heart goes out to all the children in China and the parents of these children, if this is true. Also it will be diffucult for the children in the US and Europe who already adopted from China.
Still I think that the CCAA has a good explaination.
helen
Have a lid 20-01-06 and was expected in mei-juni 2006 to have news from China…. after waiting 2,5 years….
March 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
We loved China as there is a governmental system overseeing things. No system is 100% free from corruption. I can’t have faith in every citizen of China, just like I can’t have faith that everyone in the US does the right thing in all parts of life.
But do I feel comfortable that China is equiped at handling the process, seeing to it that people are caught and dealt with when they do wrong? I do and I will go back if it is possible. I was happy to see that China internally shut down in Hunan 2005 to investigate while allowing the process the continue elsewhere. It showed they cared about adoptions and their own citizens enough to get to the bottom of things while keeping their heads about them.
We received the finding ad that was placed about our son. I hope those types of helps keep the criminal activity down and that all our kids have been truly released for IA.
It’s not like some countries when you are in the hotel with the baby and someone knocks on your door demanding money.
It will effect everyone, not just the Netherlands. I expect a lot of exagerations and partial truths to come out until after the olympics are over. I hope it helps to improve the system and doesn’t have the effect of stopping all of them. Remember Romania? I wonder what happened to all those kids?
Kristine
March 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
k_oickle - So, you wouldn’t go back for a THIRD child…now that’s taking a stand! I hope you understand that I find it very difficult to take you seriously.
Additionally, I feel you have many negative assertions about IA that just doesn’t follow the facts.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
As someone with a LID of 1/12 I suddenly feel like I am about to throw up. Does RQ really think the China program could be on hold for all countries or just Holland? I truly hope not. I am sick at the thoughts of what a hold on international adoptions would do. When do we expect a response from China regarding this issue? On another note, has RQ heard any rumors about matching for this month?
March 12th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
OK, does anyone else find it Strange that there Isn’t ANYTHING about this incident on the Net?
March 12th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
How long were parents told they can take to pay the fine? Really curious more than anything.
Forgive me but I am a little cautious about googling anymore to search the answer. I need to step away from this. Gain some perspective. It’s getting too heavy. And unfortuantely the news is usually 60% accurate and 60% truthful (in every other adoption story I have ever read about) and I really don’t think I can handle another twist for a few days.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
test
March 12th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I’ve tried to paste the links but it did not work. all the info is in dutch
just google for “netwerk”and choose the first one showed.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
this isn’t even a “news story” It is listed a the plot/summary for a film. It appears the plan is for it to be a f/u to the dying room documentary from years ago.
K-oickle, I agree with you completely. I am waiting for #1 and if I was aware of corruption or wrong doings I would back down. I want a kid but not at the emotional expense and illegal practice of others. None of these speculations are new. Anytime money exchanges hands you risk corruption. However I still think China has the least issues in this area. There is a reason why other program are closed and China isnt
March 12th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
okay, I’ve been trying so hard to be a voice of reason here, not just for this incident but for everything that has been happening with the long wait, etc. And I’ve always been one to stay on path, never letting hard times get the best of me. But I’ll be honest, I’m really starting to get scared, and this news report isn’t helping. This is the first time that I’ve seriously thought about looking at other programs. With an LID of Feb 07, the thought of all that can happen in the next 3-4 years just knocks the breath out of me, literally. I could really use hearing from people right now who are still feeling confident.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I think any one who has previously adopted a child and has either a picture of their child on the internet or video on Youtube to check out the documentary, whether nor not you speak Dutch.
The report used video footage of our adoption (from Youtube) without our permission, giving the impression that our daughter is one of those that had been stolen.
Can we say ANGRY and VIOLATED?!?
March 12th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I have watched the dutch programme on the internet I don’t understand Dutch , but this is not the same programme that was aired in the uk Chinas stolen children. The Dutch programme does seem to be more about the orphanages direct involvement.I think there will be an English version soon. I am confused are you saying that the programme that they intent to show in the future is Chinas stolen Children, because that programme as far as I recall does not implicate the orphanages, we just have to hope that there is no new evidence
March 12th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Where are my posts going
March 12th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
P12
There has to beginning of enlightenment doesn’t there. Most often it is after we are totally involved in something that we become enlightened. I understand that it may seem easy for me to sit back and say that after two adoptions, but for the record we did want to go back for a third.
We chose to stand back.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
LadyBuggin
I agree with you too. I once thought that China had the least incidence of corruption and better care for the children. I don’t know if the information was always there for me to find and that I just hear more now or if the corruption is just coming to light. I don’t know!
Right now I am being open to all I hear.
Kristine
March 12th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I Think the investigation is a good thing. All of us know now that maybe there is something wrong with the adoptions from China. So I want not adopt a child from China anymore if I do not know for sure if the child is stolen from his parents.
I cannot explain my child in furture that I knew maybe something is wrong but I adopt despite of that the child from China. I think if this is true than all of us must not adopt a child from China anymore untill the situation is correct. I have not slept and I am crying and a i sad but who wants to be part in stealing childs?
We will hear tomorrow more from our minister and agencies about everything.
greetings Helen
20-01-06
March 12th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Motherhood@48
I hope you address this with them. Just like other corruption they should be pristine in order to get people to listen to them otherwiase people do not listen to the story and the truths behind it.
Shame on them.
March 12th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
People from the Netherlands who have watched the programme can you help me out did the journalist come up with evidence of orphanages buying abducted children or is this something that they intend to prove later, and is it totally different from the programme Chinas stolen children,as we already know this was not related to orphanages Please if possible more specific information. Are they saying that it is still happening now. From someone who doesn’t speak a word of Dutch I know this is a lot to ask.
March 12th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
k_oickle - Yes it does it does seem easy for you to sit back and say that after two adoptions! That is a H-U-G-E thing to discount!
Honestly, you seem to have an Agenda…and I feel you are stirring-the-pot with half truths & and unsubstantiated stories.
“Enlightenment” Huh?
March 12th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Netherlands
Please any of you who watched the programme, was there convincing evidence that the orphanages were involved in buying babies
I am confused by the connection with China’s stolen children as this had nothing to do with inter country adoption.
Has the journalist found NEWevidence of orphanage involvement.
Anyone
March 12th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Please, everyone just try calm down. Once again, we really know very little about all this. Panic serves no good, nor does bickering amongst ourselves. One other thought–if rumors get you unsettled, stop checking this site. Walk away and maintain your peace of mind.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Hi, this is the first time I have logged into a blog. But I was fortunate (um maybe unfortunate) enough to see the BBC show. It was put onto 9 different utube movies. I don’t think you can say it has nothing to do with our little ones. Because how the children are taken and the results could have some affect on our girls and other children in the orphanages.
The main thing I got from it, was it reminded me of why we picked China. So many orphans is a societal issue in China. It is not that the families do not want their children. But people have been raised to accept that if they want to get married they have to have approval from the government. That if they want to have a child they need approval and lots of money. For them to have enough money to have one child, could take literally years, as far as saving money.
After crying through the first 15 minutes, I was kind of numb at that point and it just made me remember, she is on her way and this show is just a few reasons why she is coming to us.
March 12th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
To k_oickle: Not to worry - I am ferreting out copyright infringement information and trying to find a lawyer as the day goes on.
There has to be some kind of violation here… even the Netherlands must have some kind of copyright violation laws. And it does NOT add any legitimacy to their claims when they can’t even get their own video footage for their “expose” when they have to pirate the video of people who are innocent. (I am going to assume my daughter is not one of these children that has been kidnapped and sold… her circumstances just don’t appear to support that and using her footage is a way of implying that she IS one of those children.) I’m not a fool and I have no doubt that this happens not only in Hunan, but many other provinces as well… but why focus solely on Hunan?
I am also working diligently on trying to obtain a transcript of the program.
March 12th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
I think it is important that people separate the China’s Stolen Children film from the Netherlands report. The Netherland’s report is the one we should be more focused on. This is the one that has suggested (confirmed?) that corruption similar to the Hunan scandal continues to exist throughout China. Since China stopped Hunan adoptions in the past and since corruption has been found in many other provinces, it MAKES ETHICAL SENSE that adoption from China could/should be halted. So, think about it everyone and please be prepared (?) that your adoption may not come through if China does not rectify the situation. Yes it is scary, sad, unfortunate. I just get so worried when I see people putting their heads in the sand.
March 12th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Motherhood@48 , are you Dutch? Just curious.
I can understand that yuo are furious. must say that this is one of the reasons why i never put any pictures or film of my kids on public internet sites.
I’ve seen this happening before:(
Now that adoption is an hot item, reporters are surfing around and are using pictures and text without asking
March 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
p 12 -
I am so with you on how the parents who already have their kids are so quick to raise moral objections.
Also, I always enjoy your comments in response to the inevitable posts about “China doesn’t owe us anything,” etc.
Do you live in the New York area, by any chance?
Ruth
3/24/06
March 12th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Tellmemore,
You are correct that these are 2 different issues but please, do not assume that all adoptions will be halted. So, the discussion is in The Netherlands and doesn’t effect any other country as far as a halt on adopting from China.
If any of the children are indeed adopted out internationally, this needs to be checked, then it will effect children already adopted and that is tragic to say the least.
March 12th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
What was said in this documentary is that the director of the shaoyang SWI told that they paid money for a lot of children that they got and that these children were adopted afterwards. Also that he was sure that this happened in other orphanages as well because the people that brought the children were comparing prices.
This info is from 2005 . The new thing is that we now know that money was involved in recruiting adoptable children. And this is against all adoption rules.
Then there were 2 interviews with chinese parents. to me it is not clear when it was recorded but the discription said that they found new info the last few months so i guess this is new recorded info.
The parents told that their children ( 1 of a twin and 1 baby girl from on other couple) were taken away by chinese authorities, against their will/ One couple could not pay the fine, the other couple was unmarried. i’m not surpised by this info, but..as we all know all kids are told to be found. A chinese lawyer told that police reports were made based upon info given by the orphanage instead of the truth. And this is also against the hague convention.
you can not compare this story to the stolen children from china story. it is not the same
March 12th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
If families are worried about corruption and stolen babies why are they adopting from China? If you really think that the government is profiting and children are being stolen from birth parents then don’t sign on to the program because you may end up with a “stolen” baby.
When we we traveled we did not hand over “small, unmarked US bills” to the Chinese government or anyone else. We paid the known, legal fee for an international adoption. All the paperwork was in order and the officials were very organized and everything was documented. We got receipts for all cash transactions that were valid enough for US taxes and all transactions were overseen by our US agency guide.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
What was said in this documentary is that the director of the shaoyang SWI told that they paid money for a lot of children that they got and that these children were adopted afterwards. Also that he was sure that this happened in other orphanages as well because the people that brought the children were comparing prices.
This info is from 2005 . The new thing is that we now know that money was involved in recruiting adoptable children. And this is against all adoption rules.
Then there were 2 interviews with chinese parents. to me it is not clear when it was recorded but the discription said that they found new info the last few months so i guess this is new recorded info.
The parents told that their children ( 1 of a twin and 1 baby girl from on other couple) were taken away by chinese authorities, against their will/ One couple could not pay the fine, the other couple was unmarried. i’m not surpised by this info, but..as we all know all kids are told to be found. A chinese lawyer told that police reports were made based upon info given by the orphanage instead of the truth. And this is also against the hague convention.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
yviefaye,
I don’t think they are saying that it is still ongoing. The new thing about the Hunan scandal is that China claimed that no Dutch children were involved and there were only a limited number of children involved. netwerk now says that you can’t claim that because of the large number of Chinese children coming to the Netherlands (after US, Canada and Spain). And that there were a lot more children involved. They did not give any proof that there actually were any Dutch children involved but suggested it. They had an interview with the director of the orphanage who was convicted and an interview with a Chinese reporter. No solid proof as I can tell.
The other part was that Netwerk showed 2 stories of couples that had their children taken away by the government and having them adopted without consent from the parents.
You are correct that it is not the same program as China’s stoeln children
March 12th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I am from The Netherlands and our LID is 01/04/06. Yesterday when the news came we also saw the pictures from our lovely daughter for the first time. She is soooooooo cute!!!
My opinion is that it is partly old news and new allegations from rather close sources. They are that 100’s of children come against the will of their parents in the IA program and that indeed the official orphanages are involved.
The sources are the president of the Chen Ming institution (the convicted Hunan guy), his lawyer and a reporter Bryan Stuy. Our agency is worried about the news and has asked our department of justice to take steps in researching it and asking the CCAA to react.
In our parliament the government is asked to (temporarily) stop adoption from China untill it is assured that the above is not true. Our govt. will send a letter to the parliament before the end of the week about what they are going to do. I do not think it will lead to an immediate halt but at least to further investigations.
As far as I can see no hard evidence at all, but of course should these stories, although the sources are close but also involved, be checked and if it is true action must be taken.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Wat Mizzy says is exactly what the documentary was about! We are very nerveus at the moment. The minister is writing a letter at the moment. In this letter he will write what he is planning to do. On friday he will present this letter to the government. The possibility that adoption in Holland (from China) will stop immediately on friday stands! As soon as we will hear from it, I will leave a reply again!
We have a LID of jan. 11 ‘06…. we could be next!! Or we could be out.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I rarely ever post out here. But i have to — I can’t figure out the comments today. It seems as if there is even disagreement on what the content of the show is about. Can we get a link to the transcript? I think we need that.
While I believe that child trafficking is wrong, I think we really don’t have the information to judge what is happening yet.
I once read this scenario, somewhere — maybe here about how money can come into play with abandonments. A poor husband and wife have a beautiful girl, then they have a second girl. They need a son. (They really do — I won’t discuss that — they just do). They are desparately desparetly poor. A neighbor suggests that they go talk to a woman who takes care of babies and things. She may even help them with some money. THe woman will make sure the baby gets taken care of and doesn’t die.
This money will help feed their kid. THe woman, who is poor herself, then takes the child along with others and is then paid by an orphanage for the children.
Can it happen? I don’t know. Do I judge these people? I don’t know. Are there other more horrifying scenarios. Yup!
I think it’s going to be very very hard to truly understand all of the factors involved.
I would like to read the transcripts translated to English
Hann23
March 12th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Hann23,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. We may never know exactly what goes on, but we do know there are many, many orphans in China who need homes. The thought of them being denied loving homes because of some questionable tactics (tactics which may be practiced by very few people) is truly unthinkable.
March 12th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
rjw - Hey Ruth, we have close LID’s … ours is 3/23/06
We live in Chicago
~Paul
March 12th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Family 2B:
I AM going to assume that if one country halts Chinese adoption due to evidence that suggests corruption, than the US will follow. Better to be prepared sooner than later and hope for the best, no?
March 12th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Right now I just want to throw up!. Gob smacked, speechless and it had to happen. More journalists as the Olympics draws attention. All because there is a chance their stories will be aired and cause controversy(which is actually a good measuring tool). Whether the stories are accurate or not. And if the governments of particular countries decide to halt adoptions allowing time to investigate within China’s system….once again the children suffer no matter which way.
March 12th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
I just tried Googling every possible combination of key words to find any reports on this incident, and have found Nada…
Absolutely no (English language) news agencies have picked up the story.
…For now, I’m going to take it as probably a sensationalist report with a few people overreacting. It’s easier to sleep that way.
March 12th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
You can watch China’s stolen children on you tube. It is about babies being sold within china. They show a young couple who did not have a permit to have a child. They are very young with no money to pay the fine for a child. They have a girl, which is not the point as they did not have permission for any child. They sell the child to a broker who sells her to a family who is buying a daughter for their son to marry. Another family had their son stolen, they are desperate to find him. However, the young boys bring a huge profit, so he is long gone. Another family out right sells their son, about 15 months old, to make a profit. They show another family looking for a son. They put in an order with a child broker to get a son that fits their requirements. The show is stunning. The broker in question, sold his son off years ago because it was easier after his wife died to only care for the older son. The brother remembers when his brother was sold. He said he misses him. The show had nothing to do with IA, it all within China and mostly people buying girls for their own needs or sons for status.
March 12th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/01/video-chinas-stolen-children/
Here is the link to the show- It is in 9 parts. This is a in depth look at the problem, but it hard to watch. We can’t deny this is a problem after watching the show.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Is this what people are talking about now…these videos were posted in January, and must have aired even before that.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
No, this is a different show than what aired in the Netherlands. This is the one that is supposed to run during the Olympics. It has not aired in the US yet.
March 12th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
p12: try this site - the Netherlands web site. http://www.netwerk.tv
You can follow the links on the left side ( “China” is the same in Dutch) and the pop up will run the tv show. In Dutch. So not sure how helpful this will be!
March 12th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
p12: try this site: http://www.netwerk.tv
On the left you’ll see “adopties uit China” and there will be box that you can click for the pop up. It will play the tv show. Of course, it is all in Dutch though. I am not sure of what the program covers - I only watch a little - but it talks about the Hunan scandal and shows some Chinese parents who look like they are trying to find a child. Maybe someone else will be able to explain the show. But it is the story from the tv.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Finding Hope-
I am confident that this will be sorted out. Investigations will be done. China has one of the most transparent IA systems in place.
Please try to ignore those who prefer panic and have their own agendas. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of Chinese children who are abandoned by their families.. no corruption, no payouts. These children must be kept in our hearts and allowed the opportunity to be placed with permanent, loving families.
If I had your LID, I would continue with China and also look to see if finances would allow you to do a concurrent adoption.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
waitingtobeamom2
Well said!
March 12th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Ineke schreef “We have a LID of jan. 11 ‘06…. we could be next!! Or we could be out.”
Ik leef met u mee.
March 13th, 2008 at 12:08 am
I recall reading that someone said that one of the two couples interviewed had one of their twins taken by the government. Did I read that correctly? I do know that China has a one birth policy. If a couple has twins or triplets are born than they are able to keep them. There is an up swing in fertility drugs usage, which are known to produce multiples. So that report is hard to believe. I also recall reports about non recorded domestic adoptions becoming a target. Could the reports of children being removed from their parents actually be some of these children? So far this report is not making too much sense. I will say that during the Hunan adoption scandel, China handled the situation, not the countries adopting from China. China does take pride on the fact that their program is less corupt than others. Just a thought. Those of you who are waiting keep breathing and keep thinking positive.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:20 am
I saw the documentary , and I am not suprised , just sad for the mothers , sad for the children that have gone missing ,
I’d hope never to have to go through something like that.
:(
March 13th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Well as a 1-17 log in date I have to say I’m terrified of all of this. I don’t know what to believe anymore. We started this process in February of 2005 and here we are over 3 years later and still riding this ride. I just want my baby girl home.
Yes if this is going on again it’s wrong and yes it needs to be dealt with BUT there are still thousands of legitamate children who don’t have a family and thousands of families waiting for their child. The thought of China or any country closing it’s doors to adoption like this is sickening. Deal with the illegal activity if it still exsists but leave the LEGAL activity alone.
I can’t even sleep tonight. It’s 2a.m. and I’m wide awake. First fee increases and now this. …..sigh….. isn’t it past time for some good news?
March 13th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Firstly thanks to all the people who actually explained the content of the documentary to those of us who don’t understand the Dutch language. I hope that your government does investigate ,although this will have implications for all of us in the long term.
If the children were taken from parents who had broken Chinese laws this is harsh,and I do feel for the parents but regardless of inter-country adoption,I think these parents would be made an example of. If the parents have no way of paying a fine horrendous as this is maybe selling the child is a way of the orphanage raising funds practical but horrendous to us.
What I need to understand is that children were not taken from law abiding chinese citizens to supply our needs.
I hope that I am not sounding de-sensitized to the issues but we are aware of how harsh life is for the Chinese people and we have a better understanding of what drives peolpe in China to do what they but I fear that the general public will not share our empathy.
I think that I just need to know that the children would have ended up in orphanages even if the international adoption programme did not exist.
March 13th, 2008 at 5:05 am
After the Hunan scandal CCAA started demanding more paperwork on the children from the SWIs. I wonder if there is any mention of that in the show. Do they relate the stories they find to the way the CCAA works?
As for the authorities taking the children by force, one would like to know where, when, and if this is a widespread practice.
March 13th, 2008 at 5:40 am
P12,
I always read with al lot of interest the posts on this site. But now you make me very angry to say that we in the Netherlands are overreacting. Infact you say the Dutch people lie about the tv-report and the possibility that the Dutch gouvernment will stop the adopting-program from China immediately because you can’t find anything on the web in English. If for you the only true is what is written in English, go to sleep. The world is bigger than you think. But we have serious reasons to be afraid of what is coming on.
March 13th, 2008 at 5:54 am
Manon I agree!!!
on the China adopt Talk forum anonymouswait wrote something about it. she knows a native Dutch speaker watch that broadcast and relay to her what was said. you can find it in private areas.
all i can say. everybody in the netherlands are afraid. with a lid aug 6th 2006 we will not have a child if the government close the adoption from China. And that hurts…..
March 13th, 2008 at 7:08 am
I am not sure if this post has already gone or not so apologies for any repetitions
In brief I fully empathise with all of you from the Netherlands.If it is true that the government are looking into these allegations then if my government said they were looking into it I would feel quite justified to panic. Hopefully it will all be sorted out and be history quite soon,But programmes do close we all know that ,so it is hardly surprising that those of us that have been waiting for along time are a bit anxious and I am not from the Netherlands but am from Europe.
March 13th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Thanks Manon en Karen! We are not overreacting! Absoluty not. This is serieus. Our government can stop the China program. And it’s possible that it happens tomorrow. Today I’m at work, happy to have a class full of kids who are all so nice to me. They find it so difficult for us. And a lot of people are talking about it. Most people say: China is closed now, right. That’s how news goes. But it’s not closed yet. But maybe soon for us.
But we’ve made our desicion: when we are allowed we will travel to China for our second child. This child is in a foster home now (we have a LID of jan. 11 ‘06) and needs to get out there to a good family. We will be there for this child!!
March 13th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Waitingtobeamom2-
Thank you for your reply. My first child is from China, and it only seemed natural to adopt my second from China as well. I have always maintained such a positive approach to this, and I’ve never questioned my path. Even knowing that it might take 4-5 years, I was okay with that.
But for some reason, things are really starting to hit me hard. We’ve decided to start looking at other countries, while making sure that we can apply concurrently with China. We’ll keep our paperwork in, but we’re really feeling the need to look at other countries as well.
I do believe with all that I am that everything happens for a reason; and maybe for us, this is all meant to lead us somewhere else. I’m trying really hard to keep my heart and mind open.
March 13th, 2008 at 8:32 am
manon - You misunderstood me completely. My point was merely that I would think some/any English language news agency would pick up on a story this Big. The fact that they haven’t, has to make me wonder why. We have had “false alarms” in the past, and I am hoping this is the situation again. As for a TV show lying or stretching the truth for sensationalism, it wouldn’t be the 1st time in the Netherlands, or the USA. I find it crazy when I read posts by people saying it is “reasonable” now to halt IA this quickly on partial information.
March 13th, 2008 at 8:39 am
“The black market is in existence because we have taken the Chinese person’s ability away to adopt domestically”
I keep hearing a lot about filling our adoption “needs”
being a priority, possible cause for trafficking
um………………………international adoption is trickling
none of this makes sense to me.
March 13th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Am I missing something? I’m all for your going ahead with the adoption if the governments allow it, I encouorage it. But, does Euorpe do things differently than the US. With and LID of Jan 11 ‘06 how would you know your child is fostered vs orphanage?
March 13th, 2008 at 9:49 am
RQ
You say “This show does not involve the IA community. It is about the black market within China”. What a simple and confortable way to look at things…
Of course this show does not mean necessarily that our children are stolen. BUT as part of the adoption program in China, the adoptive families can be seen as, in a way, responsible of black market. We are not entirely responsible of this, but again, as part of the system we have some responsability.
Regards
French Marianne
March 13th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I stand by what I said - this show is not about international adoption. It is not about the government run orphanages in any way.
Part of the reason that people don’t adopt in China has to do with how important ancestors and bloodlines are. So, when people do adopt, they do it as a secret. And if you adopt through the government, it is not a secret. But if you adopt through the black market, it is.
So, I will say again, that the black market trade in babies is not a part of the government run orphanage programs. It is not connected to the world of IA.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:04 am
French Marianne - You seem to be putting a lot of effort to make the IA community part of the problem (if one does exists). Your assertions do not follow the facts, and you definitely do not substantiate them yourself.
I personally would not place blame on PAP’s for “baby black markets” if I were not very sure of it…and frankly, it does not look like you are.
March 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
p12
My assertions do not follow the facts…Could you tell me which facts you are thinking of?
Just to explain my view a little bit further:
RQ says “When Chinese people do adopt, they do it as a secret. And if you adopt through the government, it is not a secret. But if you adopt through the black market, it is.” It may”.
Well, may be this is true.
But I return the question to you : do we have clear evidences that Chinese people still behave this way? In fact there are also some rumors saying that Chinese people go to black market to get a child because SWI and CWI ‘prefer’ (inverted komas) to place children internationaly, as they get more money for them.
I will be truely happy to read some prooves of the contrary, since YES, I am not VERY SURE. But I do not understand the reasons why you seem to be so sure THAT IA IS NOT AT ALL INVOLVED IN BLACK MARKET neither.
Best regards
March 13th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
RQ wrote:
So, I will say again, that the black market trade in babies is not a part of the government run orphanage programs. It is not connected to the world of IA.
If you are basing this on the documentary, then this is true, but if you basing this on the findings from the Netherlands report, it is not true. The Netherlands report did find some sort of scandalous behavior that impicates SWIs.
How prevalent these behaviors are remains to be seen. If it is happening only rarely, it doesn’t have to be a big deal per se, but if it’s happening a lot, it SHOULD be a big deal.
March 13th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
French Marianne - What next, prove there is no Santa Clause?!
When someone makes an accusation, the burden of proof is on the one making it. So far all you substantiate your claims with are a rumor and a mysterious documentary which people are already starting to question…and who stole footage from a poster here on RQ.
I am not saying nothing irregular ever happened…but there just isn’t much to back up the “baby black market” IA connection.
I guess you just want to believe.
March 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
There is so much misinformation being bandied about by some of you that you should take the same steps you expect from the reporter - fact check. For example, Chinese families with a biological child who financially qualify may adopt a child and more are doing just that. Thousands of dollars are not merely dropped into the hands of orphanage directors with no accounting. Undoubtedly there are some rogue officials - as there are in any country. But, those who perpetuate and defend false information on thise site do a disservice to adoptive parents and the children who’ve come home with them.