Sorting it all out
First, I’m not sure why the comments for the story from The Netherlands ended up under the blog post about the piece that HBO has bought the rights to, but that seems to have confused a few people. If you are confused, read the last two articles and realize that they are talking about two different television shows.
As for the story from The Netherlands, still, nothing shows up on the news feeds. That seems odd to me. A story like this would normally be picked up by the newswires or other news services. The fact that it has not makes me wonder why it has not.
It appears that the reporter from The Netherlands is saying that the orphanages are paying people for the babies. But that was part of the problem before and has supposedly been stopped. And it isn’t as nefarious as it sounds. Babies that are abandoned sometimes just lay where they are for days because no one wants to be the one to find and report them. If a woman finds a baby she has to undergo a gynecological exam to make sure she isn’t the mother. And if a man finds one then his wife has to undergo the exam. There are lots of questions from the police, and sometimes accusations as well. Which has made people opt to not report abandoned babies. So, the orphanages started offering to pay people to report babies when they were found. It wasn’t a huge amount, I don’t remember the specifics but memory tells me it was something like 50 or 100 yuan (7 to 14 dollars). This came out in the court proceedings, and the CCAA ordered that orphanages stop doing it in the future.
Also, the report is said to say that a couple who had twins was forced to give up one of them. That goes against the way the law is written in China, it is the “one birth” policy, so twins and triplets are fine and the parents are considered lucky. There are reports (here is one story) that couples are taking fertility drugs to try to have more than one child in a birth now, as that is an easy way to legally have more than one child. I realize that occasionally a rogue family planning official decides to make up their own laws, so I’m not saying that what the reporter is saying is impossible, I’m just saying that this is not the way it is supposed to work, and that in the past when Beijing has caught family planning officials enforcing laws that did not exist things have not gone well for the official in question.
As for the content of the report that us English speakers can see that looks a bit off…. we see them interviewing someone that much of the adoption community cringes when they see. And, someone has reported that the reporter used a youtube video of their daughter in the piece without permission. So in my opinion that is two strikes against the reporter’s respectability. With those two strikes, I’m having a hard time giving the rest of the report much believability.
It still sounds like someone trying to recycle a scandal from three years ago to me. I don’t know for sure, of course, and if it is something more then it needs to come out. But, if this is just recycling an old story for ratings then shame on the reporter.
March 13th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I guess the one piece that concerns me is the possibility that my child may have been taken from her birthfamily by the police due to the one child policy and then adopted. Do I believe the police are taking children from families due to the one-child policy? Unfortunately in some areas – yes, when the family cannot immediately pay the fine. But the birthfamily is known. What concerns me is if the police reports for some children are falsified to suggest the birthfamily is unknown. That is what I wish I had assurance about.
March 13th, 2008 at 9:17 am
waitingfor2 – I agree.
If these allegations prove true then I will be horrified. That is one of my biggest fears at this point as well. I chose China in part because the children were true orphans, and the way the system was set up I felt confident that the children would have been in that orphanage whether international adoption existed or not. I didn’t want a situation where the kids ended up there to fulfill the needs of international adoption.
But, what I’m saying at this point is that I don’t yet feel the need to panic about that. I will keep an eye on this story, of course, but right now it just smells fishy to me. Too many inconsistencies for me to take the story as is. I’ve seen reporters “embellish” things too much in the past.
March 13th, 2008 at 9:28 am
RQ, I hope you are right. I have a knot in the pit of my stomach about this. LID 2/17/06
March 13th, 2008 at 9:32 am
RQ-
First of all, thank you so much for keeping up on all of this. I don’t know how you do it.
I want so badly to find out that this is, in fact, an unprofessional journalist recyling old news. And while I’m normally not a vindictive person, I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hope that somehow he can feel all of the heartache and fear that he is causing. It’s one thing to be ambitious in your career. It’s another to be willing to hurt a lot of lives in your persuit.
Please keep us apprised of any new info, as I’m sure you will.
Thank you!
March 13th, 2008 at 9:37 am
When I started reading all about this, I just got a very weird feeling. Something did not quite sit right with me. I can’t put my finger on it but if I may borrow RQ’s phrase that someting smells fishy to me that might do the trick. Or maybe it is a combination of something smells fishy and I smell a rat? I don’t quite know. I had the feeling that there was excitement about the program closing and I perceived a lack of focus on the potentially horrifying allegations. Maybe it was the rush to judgement that I perceived at some points. I suspect these types of stories will become more prevalent as we move closer to the Olympic Games in Beijing. So fasten your seat belts folks.
March 13th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I hope too that this turns out to be nothing, but it must be a shock for people in the Netherlands
I googled Dutch news in English and found a small piece
12.03.08
“Socialist and ChristenUnie MPs on Tuesday called for an end to the adoption of Chinese babies by Dutch couples.
The move follows a tv programme claimed some children are being taken from parents by the Chinese authorities and put up for adoption by foreigners.
The MPs said the adoptions should be halted pending further investigation.”
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/print/009338.php
March 13th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Yes RQ. It does sound fishy. And I for one and sorry that I commented at all, bring more attention to a potential bogus “report”.
Someone with an agenda puts news out there, knowing people will start talking about it all over blogs and such to further their own agenda. I guess they were hoping nervous people like myself would keep adding to the discussion, making their own “story” seem credible. Possibly an attention ploy? Or a just bash China ploy or a person who doesn’t want to see Chinese children adopted abroad or into their country. I’ll stop guessing….
Thanks.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I had no idea that the babies that were abandoned sometimes lay where they are for days. That breaks my heart.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I, too, had no idea that the babies sometimes lay there for days. I also had no idea about the gyno exam for a woman who finds a baby — or the the wife of a male finder. wow. I’d never heard that before and now I’m not surprised that people are reluctant to ‘find’. wow.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:19 am
I believe there is a big distinction between:
1- Children being taken away by the government and placed into orphanages So they would be adopted by Foreigners
…and…
2- Children being taken away by the government and placed into orphanages because of the One Child Policy…with some being eventually adopted by Foreigners, instead of spending their lives as orphans.
Both are sad, but one is Clearly worse than the other.
In reading the comments in several threads, I feel people are erroneously equating the two.
March 13th, 2008 at 10:31 am
I have not posted in a very long while, with a winter 2006 LID date I have had to accept that my adoption may not happen and move on with my life. But I occasionally check in on RQ to see how things are still progressing. However the post regarding the two reports interested me and I took some time last night to watch the “Stolen Children” video on youtube, I have also read the comments from many worried adopters.
As awful as what is going on in China is; there are some things I feel need to be said. First, this is a very different culture and the one-child only policy has been in place for three decades. Obviously there is controversy especially regarding those with wealth and connections that flout the law, but from what I have read about China, most people can remember the starvation of previous genereations and understand why the law is in place. (And if the enviroment continues to suffer and crops with it, do not be surprised if other countries consider something similar). That being said there will always be people who fall outside the law due to circumstance (poverty, teenage pregnancy, unplanned pregnancy) as shown in the “Stolen Children” video their are people who will sell their children. This is sad, but even here in the US there are instances of this happening. I can certainly understand why orphanage directors would “pay”, even a small amount, for a child. As shown there is now competion from traffickers for children of both sexes.
Frankly I would prefer that an orphanage directors offer some sort of legal but discreet fee to ensure that children are not placed in homes that are unqualified or dangerous. Many mothers who might be considering relinquishing their children might even except a lesser amount if they feel confident that their child will grow up in a good home, I doubt that abandoning a child at this point is even considered at all if there is money to be had, this could be a clue to the slow down in IA.
When we decided to adopt we quickly realized there are very few “perfect” options. Children are nearly always given up under sad circumstances. I just hope that China is wise enough not to close down IA. Otherwise these children will end up like so many others “sold” in countries with no IA programs like Indonesia and Hataii (as wives, as slaves, as prostitutes).
March 13th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Something doesn’t make sense to me. We have heard many times that it is time consuming and expensive for SWI directors to prepare all the documents needed for IA. Sometimes we are even told this is one of the reasons there aren’t as many babies available for IA. What is the incentive to falsify documents? Do we really believe that there are now so few ‘legally abandoned’ babies that it has come to this? We keep hearing how hard the CCAA is working to increase domestic adoption, so we know there are still alot of children in SWIs. If the SWI only has enough time/money to prepare a limited number of babies for IA why would they go to the added trouble of creating a whole false history? Why not just choose other available babies? I am being nieve?
March 13th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Thank you for your post, RQ. The piece about people being afraid (and the reasons way) to turn in found babies was interesting to me and new information. I will be interested to see how this all unfolds. Hopefully, it is old info.
March 13th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Thank you for your post, RQ. The piece about people being afraid (and the reasons way) to turn in found babies was interesting to me and new information. I will be interested to see how this all unfolds. Hopefully, it is old info.
March 13th, 2008 at 11:18 am
What we’d like to hear is other journalists, if this “original” guy is even one I don’t know, also are getting the similar information about the allegations brought up from credible sources that are actually new and not from an older problem that’s been corrected.
All the news thing said was what we all know – that Dutch officials are looking into it based on a “TV program”. It doesn’t even say documentary let alone news program. Also, the link doesn’t appear to part of major or minor news site!
It makes me wonder if there aren’t spoofs on these boards as well. I don’t where credible information can be found. This is a rumor site at least. So I’m going to keep things perspective.
March 13th, 2008 at 11:32 am
It is indeed shocking news for us in the Netherlands. I really hope it turns out to be false information. The justice minister first wants to investigate and not halt the programm. This week he will write a letter to the parlaiment explaining what his and the adoption agencies next step is.
My adoption agency says this news is not new and has no intention of halting or stopping the China programm, thank goodness.
March 13th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I worry that by posting this and getting the IA community buzzing about something that may be nothing, this may be inadvertently playing into the hands of the unscrupulous reporters. Let’s not give them any more credibility or press.
March 13th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I recall reports of women having babies just for sale in southern China, One was quoted that they could make more money selling a child than raising a pig for market. The Traffickers would pay them a pittance and have teenagers as young as 12 going up to the mountains to retrive the babies after they were old enough to travel, some wern’t and did not make it. The Jane in China site does bring up instance where a twin was taken froma family on her post from today.
March 13th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
I am very curious to learn more about the practice of people not picking up abandoned babies because it might implicate them as the birth parents. Was this information published in the news media somewhere? I have googled it and I can’t find anything that might corraborate that statement.
March 13th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I am the mother whose video was used in the documentary.
We contacted both Netwerks TV and the blog owner and they have replied that they have done no wrong but will edit out the video. If they did no wrong – why are the making the change? Because they know it isn’t right! They don’t want to get any bad press – or have a lawsuit filed.
We have had many people ask to use our daughter’s pictures for various reasons.. and we have closely scrutinized each request – with only once having given permission with great restrictions on how it could be used. However, I can say that I would NEVER have given anyone permission to use our video for this documentary.
There will always be kooks out there who have a political or social agenda against IA – I have gotten used to that. But this documentary has lost all credibility with me when they used video that was not theirs and used without permission. Plus, they may have put us at risk for injury or worse should someone recognize my husband… and therefore realize that our daughter is the one in the video.
Well, lessons learned the hard way. I am going to make our channel private, available only to friends/family.
I do agree that there are few perfect options. Perfect would be parents raising their bio children… but that isn’t always possible – even in the U.S.
March 13th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
And by the way – I would give anything (short of my daughter(s) – might consider trading my husband – ) to get an original copy of that documentary shown in the Netherlands and on the internet.
Found out I can’t make my channel private – only individual videos – and they can only be available to 25 people I choose who are either friends or family.
Sorry, this is not IA related. Just venting…
March 13th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I think that brutal enforcement of the one child policy, possibly including the purported forced removal of a child from her family to be given up for international adoption, is not a rare occurrence perpetrated by a “rogue” family planning official. The Chinese government demands ruthless enforcement, with well-documented and widespread use of forced abortion, forced sterilization, and if we can believe it, and why not, forced removal of “unlicensed” children from their parents.
I don’t know why so many people think these policies are justified in order to keep down the population. Sometimes, the ends do not justify the means. And the famine of the 50’s and 60’s was in no way caused by population problems, it was caused by criminally incompetent management by the government, much as famine goes on in North Korea.
I personally think that any policy that leads, over and over again, to criminal abuses of human rights, is criminal in itself.
Our Chinese children are the victims of these policies, as are their birthparents. I, for one, think that Chinese people deserve the same reproductive freedom that I have.
March 13th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
As some of you have pointed out, there have to be many, many legally abandoned babies in China. Look, children are still growing up in orphanages! Even without the one child policy, in a country of China’s population, there would be so many orphans born in any given year it would be difficult to count them. Think about the number of orphans in much smaller countries, and even the number of children without parents in the U.S. I’m sure there has always been, and probably always will be many more orphans in China than will be adopted, internationally or otherwise. It’s simple logic, really. As for so-called government involvement, well, as RQ explained, some things have gotten lost in translation. Additionally, we have to be careful when we talk about the “government” in China as one monolithic entity. That would be like them equating our Congress with a local official in Texas, or equating the State representative in Michigan with a sheriff in Kentucky. Think about it. I have to admit, I, against my better judgment, allowed myself to panic over this. Never again!
March 13th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
To Motherhood@48
Try making a blog of your photos. You can make that invitation only on Blogger instead of Youtube. I had a “friend” put my daughter’s photos on her MySpace page without permission. I asked her to romove them and she got mad and did not understand the violation. We are no longer friends. As you have figured out now, be very careful what you put on the web for public viewing.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
It’s terrible when people use unauthorized material but unfortunately public info on the net is just that. I had to fight to get a blog removed from a list that never had my permission to begin with. I think when you have kids, you need to go private or be prepared that there are some sick people out there who will do what they want w/o regard for others.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Sorry if this is a duplicate. My posts have gone missing!
As some of you have pointed out, there have to be many, many legally abandoned babies in China. Look, children are still growing up in orphanages! Even without the one child policy, in a country of China’s population, there would be so many orphans born in any given year it would be difficult to count them. Think about the number of orphans in much smaller countries, and even the number of children without parents in the U.S. I’m sure there has always been, and probably always will be many more orphans in China than will be adopted, internationally or otherwise. It’s simple logic, really. As for so-called government involvement, well, as RQ explained, some things have gotten lost in translation. Additionally, we have to be careful when we talk about the “government” in China as one monolithic entity. That would be like them equating our Congress with a local official in Texas, or equating the State representative in Michigan with a sheriff in Kentucky. Think about it. I have to admit, I, against my better judgment, allowed myself to panic over this. Never again!
March 13th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Hi RQ,
Thanks for your post about the One-Child-Policy in China. It shows how complex these things are. It shows how different China is from other countries in the world.
Here in The Netherlands everything is very confusing and disturbing after last weeks programm on Dutch television. The reason why the story is not picked up so far is because our government is working on a formal reaction. This reaction will come friday march 14th, when the minister of the Justice Department sends a letter to our parliament. If The Netherlands stops International Adoption from China or puts it on hold, then we have a problem, then we have story and then we have news, bad news.
However I don’t expect this to happen. It would be a shortsighted action, because to me there is no news in the programm. It’s the same story all over again. It’s about the Hunan Scandal with the same people involved as in earlier reports (like the director of an Orphanage Chen Ming).
But the timing of the programm is very good, when you look at it negatively. There is also a discussion going on whether Dutch Athletes can speak out about the Chinese Human Rights situation when they are in China during the Olympics.
It all adds up and it all influences the general opinion in The Netherlands about China. This is what frightens me the most. I hope our members of parliament and our government will not stop international Adoption from China, just to please the ‘crowd’ and to show that ‘we’ don not approve of China’s policies, rules and laws. But again, I don’t expect this to happen. But if it does, ……. sigh…..
Jeroen1970 explained the content of the Dutch TV-programm very well in the post about de documentary ‘China’s stolen children’. By yhe way Jeroen: Congratulations. I sincerely hope that all this will not disturb your process of becoming a family.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I echo AmFam’s question above. This is complete news to me, and I feel like I’ve done a decent amount of reading on abandonment in China. When I google questions around the topic, I mostly get Brian Stuy stuff and AmFam’s blog, heh.
I wonder if that might be a very limited practice or province specific. Anyway, I’d be interested in any further info on that topic.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
smiling lady, i totaly agree with you.I come from Holland too and i’m very afraid that they stop International Adoption or put it to hold.Our LID 14 Feb.’06 (is it not ment to be?)
March 13th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Hi RQ,
http://www.netwerk.tv/weblog/index.php?itemid=85
By this link you can see some video images of a dutch adoption-prof, I believe, an american man who knows a lot about adoption form China and a sir Duncan talking about the matter.
Two video’s are in english.
Let’s hope smiling lady is right! I hold my breath until tomorrow….
March 13th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
From Holland I want to write more about this, because I read things here that are not correct.
There was really shokking news in the program.
The program was about 2 topics:
1. the childtraffic in Hunan, we all know about since 2005.
The program also suggested that childtraffic practices were more widespread than we know about, and that there were more children involved than the 85 children that was known about. Shokking to me.
2. governmentofficials who take away children from parents who cannot affort to pay (when they already have a child). These children were put in an orphanage and in the end they were adopted internationally! This is really shokking news!
It is not clear how often this happened. The program was about Hunan, but nobody knows whether this also happened in other provinces and whether is still happens.
In Holland we have 2 agencies who work with China.
One of the agencies says the program was nothing new and they think there is no reason to worry.
The two other agencies say that it is new information to them that children are taken away by government officials, brought to orphanages, got false papers and were adopted internationally.
The agencies and the ministery of Justice are talking about how to handle in this situation.
The two agencies who worry about this write on their websites that they are shokked by the news, that they want it to be investigated thoroughly, and they want to be sure that this is not happening anymore.
The directors of both agencies said on tv that it is possible in the worst case scenario, that they have to stop the Chinaprogram as long as they cannot be sure that these practices are not happening anymore.
At this moment they are waiting the steps to be taken.
For anyone who wants to translate this agency news:
http://www.wereldkinderen.nl/site.php?id=nl_news&nieuws_id=183
http://www.meiling.nl
Well, I hope I explained it clearly.
Let’s hope, that in the end it will be false information, but at the moment I’m afraid there are things happing in China that really affect in a very bad way the life of children in China.
March 13th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
AmericanFamily – that information came to me when the facts around the Hunan Scandal were coming out. It was a widespread practice and was talked about like everyone already knew it was happening. It wasn’t resulting in kidnapped babies being brought to the orphanage, but still, the appearance of paying for babies was bad and the CCAA instructed it to stop.
The information has also come to me a few times since then when an orphanage director says that babies are now more often picked up by families who keep the baby as their own without filing any reports, as opposed to the past when their people found the baby and reported it to the police and the baby came to the orphanage. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, that the baby stays there until a family who wants a child finds it, as that means the child never has to spend time in an orphanage. But, some babies die before someone finds them, too. And that is very bad. Anyway, the point is that some of the SWI directors say that this is one reason they don’t have as many babies coming to them now. And more than one director has told this to a parent who reported it to me.
March 13th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
There are 3 agencies in the Netherlands, _________, _________ ánd ________… for the record just to be accurate….
Edited by RQ to remove agency names.
March 13th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Don’t name agencies!
March 13th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
“…one director has told this to a parent who reported it to me.”
Well, I supposed that does qualify as a rumor and since you are the Rumor Queen, I suppose that is fare game :).
March 14th, 2008 at 3:46 am
Sorry, it was a typing mistake.
Obviously, in Holland we have 3 agencies for adoption from China.