Sick. And Concurrent Adoptions, again
I’m sick. So is RK. Both girls are fine, but RK and I are literally almost too sick to care for them. Thank goodness for grandparents and friends. All we had to do yesterday was get them up and get them ready and grandparents drove them for us, picked them up, fixed them dinner, and returned them home to us shortly before bedtime last night. And they are doing it for us again today.
I have done a very (very) quick look around, and see nothing about the dates that may be included in the next batch.
As for the concurrent question, the CCAA is fine with it, but some agencies forbid it. Those agencies used to say it was a CCAA policy, now they’ve been forced to admit it is their own policy. Some of them changed it to allow people to start a second concurrent, but they will still only allow families to actually complete one of them. Which doesn’t really help all that much, they are just letting you wait to stop the China adoption later instead of sooner.
You’ll find the CCAA’s English version of their statement here.
The simple answer seems to be that concurrent adoptions and pregnancies are fine, but that they want a “certain length of time between pregnancy or adoption from other countriesâ€. They do not state what this time period is, so I’m guessing that they are leaving that part up to the agency and social worker’s discretion. Most agencies seem to have a policy of anywhere from 6 months to a year.
The big caution here is that some families are being required to go on hold if they do not have enough time in between, and some of those families have had a hard time coming off hold. Some families have been held to the new requirements, being told that going on hold means they were no longer grandfathered. Not all families, but some. I don’t know what the final resolution to that has been, I haven’t heard much from it recently so I’m hoping that families going on hold are now back to being grandfathered in.
March 25th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Thanks for checking RQ. I hope you both feel better soon.
March 25th, 2008 at 8:37 am
RQ, I’m sorry to hear you and RK aren’t well! I hope you both get the chance to rest up and get well very soon.
With the concurrent adoptions, are some files being held to the new requirements ONLY if they go on hold?
In other words, if a concurrent adoption is completed with enough time in between the concurrent and referral from China, are files being grandfathered in consistently under the old rules??
I sooooo wish there would be a definite statement from CCAA about concurrents and whether families doing them are being grandfathered in or not. I can only hope!!!
March 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Get well soon, RQ! Have you heard anything more about doing a concurrent SN China adoption while you retain your place in the NSN line?
March 25th, 2008 at 8:45 am
RQ & RK, hope you’re on the mend and get better quick. Your kids must miss you, and we miss you too :)
Shelley
March 25th, 2008 at 8:46 am
RQ-
Thank you so much. Had I known you were sick, I wouldn’t have made a request for info. Go get some rest!
Feel better.
March 25th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Get better soon RQ and RK!!! I’ve been there…. A big HURRAY for the grandparents!!!!
March 25th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Fell better guys, question if you get in the special needs line does that mean you can lose the grandfather pre May 1st requierments if you opt not to go SN?
March 25th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Dear RQ, I hope you feel better soon. Thanks for checking!
March 25th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Our agency told us that concurrent adoptions were OK but that we would need to file an addendum to our homestudy. This would move our dossier back into the review room. They were unclear as to whether this meant that we would be subject to the new rules or not. Technically the old rules should still apply but nothing is certain with the CCAA. They also said that the dossiers that have gone back into the review room for this reason have been delayed a referral by about 5 months from when their LID got referrals.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:23 am
As always, thank you so much for reporting news to us. More importantly today is your health. Please take care of yourself, and RK, and feel better soon. And yes, we grandparents can step up to the plate when needed. That is what we do best. Nana
March 25th, 2008 at 10:14 am
My agency stated that concurrent was fine as long as there was a year between adoptions. They also talked about going on hold but did not go into specifics about the implications of that.
A question: I’ve heard a lot about how agencies are stringing people along regarding wait times but if almost all of them are non-profit what do they have to gain by doing this?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
kampfiii:
Not-for-Profit doesn’t mean they can’t make a profit in the performance of their work (facilitating and completing adoptions). It means they don’t distribute the funds to shareholders, because they have none. They could be making 150% profit from every adoption they do – and they are still a NFP as long as their work adheres to the mission of the organization.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:52 am
RQ and RK please get better soon!
March 25th, 2008 at 11:21 am
RQ,
Hope you and your husband feel better soon. Thanks for keeping us posted. Now back to bed!!!
March 25th, 2008 at 11:31 am
waitingforlibby,
I checked into the SN route while waiting for a NSN child. I must have called a dozen agencies. They all said NO (except one). And I thought that was kind of suspicious. I believe China will only allow 1 dossier at a time in China for each family. I have also been investigating concurrent adoptions for about 6 weeks now. Most agencies say NO, but a few are coming around. BUT I do not feel comfortable with moving ahead. I am afraid of jeopardizing my China dossier. I MUST be grandfathered and can’t risk any changes.
I sure would be interested in how others were puling this off. I know it’s been done in the past with families just NOT telling the other agency or updating their home study. I am not interested in this route especially since China and the USCIS are allowing concurrent adoptions. And again, I don’t wish to jeopardize my China adoption. I have one little girl from China and we are looking forward to going back for a brother or sister.
VERY frustrated!
March 25th, 2008 at 11:42 am
A friend of mine had put their file on hold for a few months after it was logged in. When they called the agency back to re-activate it, they had been told that the clock would start ticking again and they’d move along with their original LID group through review/referral etc. However, that’s not what happened. They were told they would be given a new LID and that some of their documents now had to be re-done as they werent valid anymore. Obviously, it was devastating to them and left a very sour situaton. Hopefully this was just their situation and not what happens a lot.
I would strongly recomment to anyone considering putting their China logged-in dossier on “hold status” to thoroughly understand the implications and have their agency explain it over and over agian until they understand. A change in LID with the current wait times can equate to years of additional waiting. And with new LID come the new rules and a family may no longer qualify.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Waitingforlibby-
We were just given clarification from our agency as to why we would be unable to proceed with our China adoption after receiving a referral from another program, while other families can. And you’ve hit the nail right on the head. Our application would need to be “re-approved” by CCAA – UNDER THE NEW REGULATIONS – and that’s where we get eliminated. We don’t meet the new requirements. In defense of my agency, they admit that all of this is so new to them(they never allowed concurrent adoptions) that they don’t want to make any guarantees to a family and then have it not work out (which I’m thankful they’re honest about). We, too, wouldn’t want to risk losing our place in China.
I think I FINALLY get it.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Meizhimom-
You, too, have hit the nail right on the head. People need to talk to their agencies and have them explain it over and over again if that’s what it takes. I felt stupid asking the same questions over and over again, but I just wasn’t getting it. And my misunderstanding would have cost us our second child from China. It’s a VERY complicated issue, one that varies from agency to agency; and families need to be absolutely sure that they understand the process.
Bottom line, we’re staying put. Here’s to 2012,
LID Feb 07
March 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I’m sorry, they never allowed “concurrent adoptions with China” before.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
But if the wait for CHina is going to be upwards of three years, we will most liekly be able to adopt and have a 1 year space between adoptions without it even affecting the China process. We’re doing a concurrent and going domestic. The average wait is 6-18 months (supposedly!) Our LID is 3/07–I think we have plenty of time.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
kampfiii Says:
“A question: I’ve heard a lot about how agencies are stringing people along regarding wait times but if almost all of them are non-profit what do they have to gain by doing this? ”
kampfiii~ The director of my medium to small, NON-PROFIT china-only agency earns a salary of about $250K per year. Non profit definitely does not mean that no one makes money.
I would think that the 5 or so years before the slowdown provided a pretty impressive living to the directors and some of the employees of the agencies. Sign families up, move them through the process, china was so consistent and dependable for a time it was pretty easy money. How many of us have come to the realization that our agencies do almost NOTHING?? They probably didn’t before either, people just didn’t notice or mind so much because the process moved along as expected. Plus, I would think that most people, once they have their child home, feel like all the hoops they jumped were worth it.
I hate to talk about adoption in terms of a business model because to the families and the children it is, of course, so much more than that. And, I’m not saying that agencies (some?? most??) don’t care but, that doesn’t change the fact that adoption, domestic and IA, is BIG business.
They have to be feeling the squeeze now with many less dollars coming in and the future of IA looking not so rosey.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
We successfully completed a concurrent adoption with absolutely no problems. From the time we filed to the time we had our baby son, it was three months. For our China adpoption, we DID NOT have to go back to the review room. In fact, we only needed a simple home study addendum. We are still “grandfathered” in under the old requirements (LID 3/15/06), and there haven’t been any issues at all. Just an FYI if it helps.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
kampfiii-
I think what you need to clarify with your agency is whether or not your China application will be put “on hold” when you get your domestic referral. From what I’m understanding from other posts above is that being put on hold might change your LID, etc. I would just talk to your agency, ask them as many questions as you need to, and make sure that the entire process is laid out for you. If they’ve got a lot of concurrent adoptions under their belt, they should be able to advise you well.
March 25th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
I have a question that may have been addressed, sorry if that is the case. Is it possible to submit your dossier and then one year later submit a second? Thus having 2 dossiers in the que at one time. Or does the first adoption have to be completed and why, if anyone knows? It would seem that with the wait times being what they are, you would be assured that your children would come at least one year apart which is what China requires. Just a thought on concurrent adoptions with China rules and regs.
March 25th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
In our case, we adopted concurrently 16 months ago. We are still a year away from referral, so we are well within our agency’s guidelines of a year between placements. They do not believe we will have to go on hold, lose our LID or be re-reviewed. They have had several families successfully adopt from China after adopting another child during the wait.
That said … I think it is a risk to adopt concurrently. We could lose our opportunity to adopt from China, because anything can happen. We have seen that in the past couple of years. On the flip side, there is a risk in not adopting concurrently and trusting that China will come through. There is no guarantee. It puts adoptive parents in a tough spot and no agency can fully assure its client that either path will ultimately lead to a child.
We were at peace with the possibility of losing our China referral. I wanted to be a mom and didn’t give a hoot where my child hailed from. But I can understand the fear parents have who desperately want a child or another child from China.
Best,
Patti
Celia, 16 months, domestic adoption
LID: 3/21/06
March 25th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
My large agency insists that in order to be eligible to do a concurrent adoption with China, you have to meet the new May 2007 requirements. This is based on their discussion with the CCAA. That means singles can not do concurrent.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
As a clarification to Motherhood@48′s comments, non-profit is actually a legal term relating to their filing status. In contrast to private companies which would push profits to shareholders in the form of dividends/stock buyback, non profits don’t have shareholders. Thus in a general sense, they aren’t non-profit because they don’t pay shareholders, they are non profit because costs are roughly equal to revenues as filed on their tax forms with the IRS. That doesn’t mean they don’t make more on an adoption than the cost. It just means it has to covers other costs (ever wonder why administrators of some non profit hospitals make so much?). The reason IMHO that the agencies aren’t being up front about timing is that they still have employees to employ and keeping people coming covers that. Additionally, I’d guess there are political reasons (relating to CCAA) that keep them from being completely honest.
March 25th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
findinghope–
Thanks for advice. At this point whatever happens with CHina happens. The wait time is wreaking havoc on us emotionally. We’ll go doemstic for now and make decisions about CHina later. Geez…we only have about 4 years to do that!!
March 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
kampfiii-
You’ll make the right decision for your family. And when all is said and done, you’re going to end up with the child(ren) you were always meant to have, and all this craziness won’t add up to a hill of beans. I keep trying to remind myself of that as well.
Good luck with your domestic adoption!!
March 25th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Hello all, my wife and I looked into going SN and we called a number of agencies. Here is the deal. We are LID 10/13/06 and are grandfathered under the old CCAA regs. If we went to SN out of NSN we would have to be reviewed again under the new regs and we don’t qualify.
So please if you are pulling from 1 China program and going to another check 1st that you make it under the new CCAA regs.
Also I have been told by my SW and agency that you can not have 2 Dossiers in China at the same time.
Hope this helps…
Matt and Laura
L I . NY
March 25th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
“We were just given clarification from our agency as to why we would be unable to proceed with our China adoption after receiving a referral from another program, while other families can. And you’ve hit the nail right on the head. Our application would need to be “re-approved†by CCAA – UNDER THE NEW REGULATIONS – and that’s where we get eliminated. We don’t meet the new requirements.”
FindingHope, thanks for your info!
Could you clarify whether your agency says the re-approval under the new regs applies ONLY to a concurrent adoption within the china program [ie: applying for an SN child while staying in line for your original NSN referral] or to ALL concurrent adoptions from other countries/domestic, etc?
I’d love to know about this!!
March 25th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Hi Everyone!!
HELP
If your agency does not get Hague accredited what happens?
Is your file transferred to a new agency?
There is a new list and our agency is not on it. I know that the final list is on the 1st of April.
If anyone knows can you please say???
Thanks
Shamrock
March 25th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Yes, your file gets transferred to another agency. I was told this by my agency who is not accredited at this time.
March 26th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Hi RQ-hope you are feeling better.
In response to the previous e-mails, I agree to approach whatever you do with caution and know that no matter what you are told, or what is in writing for that matter, anything can happen. China can and will do whatever they want. We know people who have done domestic and have been OK, but the IA concurrent adoptions have taken them out of line and they did not get put back in-the time starts over. Our agency says it is one year between adoptions no matter what the circumstances are: SN, NSN, Domestic, IA, LID, etc. I myself cannot justify losing my place in line after I have waited so long.
So, RQ, I have a question: what is your opinion of the Olympics in terms of what is going on in Tibet? It looks as though France may bow out-what IF the US decides to Boycott the Olympics? Do you think it would help the adoption front or hurt it?
On one of the other blogs a person wrote in today with a late April LID saying the CCAI told her today on the phone that she will not get her baby in 2008. My agency said the opposite. Why are there so many inconsistencies? What can we do to band together and make some noise? This is getting to be ridiculous. Why cant we all put some pressure on the CCAA to make some formal statments regarding the wait, concurrent adoptions, etc. Would an adoption lawyer help?
Sick and tired of being sick and tired, CACD
March 26th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Hi Cachinadoll, the blogger’s agency is being realistic. At the current pace, an April LID would not get a referral in 2008. We are a late March LID and based on current trends believe we would get a referral around March of ’09. Agencies do not have firm answers, and I doubt the CCAA does either. They answer to people above them and are dependent on orphanages as well.
Unfortunately there is nothing an adoption lawyer or anyone else can do about this situation. Adoptive parents can wait or try another route.
Best,
Patti
Celia, 16 months, domestically adopted while waiting
LID: 3/21/06
March 26th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Yes, the CCAA requires that if you switch to SN that you qualify under the new regulations. That is correct.
There have been a few exception made for older children with complicated special needs that have been on lists for a really long time with no families showing interest.
As for the Hague, it is my understanding that agencies not Hague Compliant can continue to process adoptions that do not fall under the Hague, but can’t begin any new adoptions.
March 26th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Patti,
Hello-I agree about the adoption lawyer but I too wonder how it is legal for China to give incorrect, false, misleading-whatever you want to call it information to the CCAA and then that is passed on to agencies all over the world and then trickles down to the parents. We were told 6-12 months in Jan. 2006-far past when the agencies knew the wait had increased. Our agency has told us we will get our baby in 2008-far different from your estimation. Your estimation is based on China continuing to mislead-perhaps they will realize how lucky they are too that we are all wlling to wait, despite their deceptions. I know that the nannies and workers there are good people and love all of the children but like someone else said, these are BABIES-our families, not pawns. If you had “paid” for and planned for a baby in the US and this happend people would be suing and rasising holy hell and we all know it. I guess I too want to know how it is legal to do this. Our agency never said the wait could be more than 12 months-let alone 3 or 4 years. Why is there not International laws that also protect the parents? We all know there are thousands of babies in China waiting too. This is so sad. I am NOT going to stop waiting but you got really lucky-what domestic agency did you use? Eveyone else I know (or have heard of on other blogs, this blog, etc) have not had a smooth ride.
March 26th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
We were LID 1-12-06, and between the communications from our agency, watching the then available status update on CCAA’s website, and reading the forums, we were well aware that the wait was then about 9 months. The waiting time was increasing, and had already increased in the 6 months we had been chasing paper. All through the process, we have looked at multiple sources of information, kept track of referral times, and made our own estimates, shooting at a constantly moving target. Our personal estimates have worked about as well as any other we have seen.
Our agency has been very candid with us about the process, and has steadfastly refused to make any predictions about when our turn might come. We applaud them for that. It is the only responsible thing for an agency to do. Anything else is pure guessing. Naturally as referral time draws near, our contact is more willing to venture a guess based on recent performance.
In conversations with several people who have lived and worked in China and dealt with the bureaucracy, it is very possible that the CCAA has very little idea what is going to happen more than 3 to 4 months away. And, in fact how can they? Follow every pregnant woman in China around and try to guess if her baby will be abandoned?
Think about it.
The Farmer From Iowa
March 27th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Just curious – what kind of evidence could families have that their child’s orphanage paid finders fees for children? And if this was so prevalent why are there less children available for adoption – not more? I am aware of the Hunan scandal – but I was always told that the China program was pretty honest. That is why we did not consider Guatemala to adopt – the system was too corrupt
March 27th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
meismama-
We were trying to do a concurrent with China and Ethiopia, and I’ll be honest, I’m STILL not completely sure of my agency’s policy. I know that WE were not eligible to continue with our China adoption once receiving a referral from Ethiopia, but I’ve heard that other families with other agencies were.
I can’t emphasize strongly enough how important it is for you to speak with your individual agency, find out from them EXACTLY what their policy is and then go from there. Don’t be afraid to ask questions over and over again, and make sure you understand everything. Like my SW told me, that’s what we’re paying them for.
Good luck with your research! And, by the way, we decided to stick it out with China and withdraw from the concurrent.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Patience111 — China can do what ever it wants with regards to its children. The country is under no obligation to give any referrals. The contract you signed with your agency probably said something to this effect, that the agency makes no guarantees about what China will do.
With domestic adoption, you can pay thousands in fees and living expenses for a pregnant woman, and then she can decide to bring her baby home from the hospital. She is under no legal or moral obligation to place her baby with the adoptive parents she chose. There is no one to sue. That’s the way it is. Adoption is about embracing risk because the reward is so great.
Our domestic adoption experience was bumpy. We spoke extensively with two pregnant women who then chose other couples as their baby’s parents. Ouch! A third young woman was considering us and another couple at the time that we matched with our daughter’s first mother. The pregnant woman’s feelings were hurt when we “ditched” her for someone else, but I wanted to be a mom and did what I had to do within the law and my feelings about what was right and what was wrong. I got very lucky. I believe that the vast majority of prospective adoptive parents will be blessed with a child one way or another, but there are always varying degrees of risk involved.
I worked with several adoption attorneys. To be honest, there was nothing special about them. They provided services, and we paid for them. There are many qualified adoption attorneys out there with a lot of domestic experience.
Good luck!
Best,
Patti
Celia, 16 months
LID: 3/21/06