Update
TT and I have been in the hospital while RK stayed home with GG. We are home now and she is better. Not well yet, but a few hours ago I got the first smile I’ve seen from her in days. She’s sleeping beside me in bed right now, and I plan to be asleep beside her soon.
I have a good bit of personal correspondence from several people about Brian Stuy and the things he is up to. I have seen him blow things out of proportion many times, and I have a hard time believing the things he says are “facts”. His idea of a fact is not my idea of a fact.
That being said, I’ve heard from a few parents who say that they have evidence that their child’s finding person was paid money for taking the child to the orphanage. And yes, if these parents are correct then this has happened since the Hunan scandal was supposedly resolved. I do not know the proof though, and in at least one case the proof seems to be that she is living above her “means” for the type of job she has. Sounds like circumstantial evidence to me, and I’d feel a lot better if the State Department were looking at this “proof”.
I still do not understand why a parent would entrust their child’s finding information to Brian Stuy as opposed to taking it to the State Department if they have these kinds of questions. Brian Stuy is going to try for his fifteen minutes of fame while the Olympics coverage is ramping up. The State Department and more specifically the Guangzhou Consulate is set up to investigate these kinds of things without making it a huge political statement in the process.
I have sent an email to the Guangzhou Consulate asking if I can open up a dialogue with them about what is being said behind the scenes right now, and suggesting they contact Brian Stuy directly to find out what proof he actually has so they can open their own investigation. I have not shared the names of anyone who has contacted me directly. The form I filled out said I should expect to hear something in five days. Hopefully it won’t take that long, but knowing how my own local USCIS office performed, it very well might be five days.
I have not been in the forum lately, and I honestly don’t know when I will have a chance to go see what all is being said right now. But from the personal correspondence I’ve received over the past couple of weeks, I’ve got a decent idea of what’s being said behind the scenes.
My personal belief is that there are probably some orphanages bending rules here and there. The sheer number of orphanages, spread out as far as they are, it would be almost impossible to expect that every single one of them is following every rule to the letter. That doesn’t mean the entire system is corrupt. If there are orphanages acting in a manner they should not be, then we need to get the accusations headed to the organization that is there to oversee such things. If you are Chinese that is probably the CCAA, if you are an American that is our own State Department.
It is not Ethica, it is not the JCICS, it is not FCC, it is not Brian Stuy, it is not Half the Sky. No one in that list has the authority or the impartiality to be able to investigate and, if a problem is found, fix the problem.
I don’t really know what I can do in this situation, and I’m not sure how much I’ll be around until TwinkleToes is back to being my healthy and happy baby again.
April 14th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Thanks RQ..Hope TT feels better soon and you both get some rest…
April 14th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
So glad to here from you! I really hope TT is better, so sorry to hear she had to be in the hospital.
April 15th, 2008 at 12:57 am
THank you RQ for taking action in the midst of your own personal crisis. You are truly selfless. I knew we could trust you.
Adomom
April 15th, 2008 at 12:59 am
RQ thanks for the update–we’ve all been thinking of you and Twinkletoes. Glad that you’re both home. The hospital is never very restful, is it? TT be well soon.
Best wishes,
CChips
April 15th, 2008 at 5:00 am
RQ, I’m glad to hear that TT is out of the hospital and I hope TT will be better soon!
As far as we know a part of our Government is travelling this week to China to talk about the things you wrote about! All we can do is wait now for the things to come.
LID jan. 11 ‘06
April 15th, 2008 at 7:13 am
RQ…I’m glad TT is home. I hope she is back to her old self SOON!
Thanks for your action on the information you have received. It sure would be nice to be able to put it to rest, whether the news is good or bad.
April 15th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Hugs to TT and I hope she is well soon. Nana
April 15th, 2008 at 7:39 am
I’m so happy to hear that TT is home. I hope she gets to feeling better soon.
All this talk in the forum has had my stomach doing flip flops. Thank you for trying to get to the bottom of all this for us. I swear, I don’t know what we would do without you.
April 15th, 2008 at 7:57 am
RQ-
How upsetting to have your little one in the hospital. We hope she’s better very soon, and we’ll all send positive thoughts her way. I hope the sun is shining at your house as it is at ours. Go snuggle.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:10 am
RQ, hugs to your sweet TT and to GG as well; I’m sure she’s missed her mama and sis. I know how hard it is to have a sick one in the hospital; you all just take care of your home kingdom right now.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I am so glad to hear that TT is doing better. Get some much needed rest!
April 15th, 2008 at 9:40 am
So sorry to hear that your sweet Twinkle Toes was in the hospital. I hope she is on her way to recover now! Glad to hear she is home.
Tracy
April 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am
I’m glad to hear that you are all home and that TT is feeling better. She’s been sick for many days…I hope she’s back to feeling like herself very soon.
I appreciated the information above. Thank you.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Welcome home, RQ! Lots of hugs and well wishes for TT!
April 15th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Dear RQ,
I can’t even begin to explain to you how relieved I am that finally someone in the adoption community is willing to stand up for what is right and take this to the governments who are there to oversee this program.
I do hope that all areas of China will be questioned and investigated thoroughly.
You are a powerful force in the adoption community with so much support that I feel blessed to be able to finally move forward knowing full well that you will now be representing all of the children who have no voices and all of the PAP’s who have signed up for a program in which they feel is corrupt free.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I look forward to hearing updates on how the governments are dealing with this and the results of the investigation.
At least there is someone willing to take this to the higher authorities and to take action which may lead to a program which is working the way it should.
I can rest knowing now that the IA community is coming together with a fantastic and well respected leader!
Hugs to you for stepping up when we needed you the most!!
Cathy
April 15th, 2008 at 11:25 am
RQ, I hope your little one is feeling well soon. I remember when DD#2 had pneumonia this past winter (twice) at age 2, its so hard when they are so sick so young.
If anyone can explain in a nutshell what B Stuy is claiming and how parents have “evidence” that their finding person was paid money to take their child to the orphanage, I’d appreciate your comments. I’m very confused by all of this and I really haven’t found a concise explanation in the forums. Since DD#2 is from Hunan, I guess I’m more concerned now. Thanks.
April 15th, 2008 at 11:45 am
I don’t see my first post so sorry if this becomes a duplicate.
First, RQ, hope your little one is feeling well very soon. Sounds like things are going in the right direction.
If anyone else has the time, can you please explain in a nutshell wat B Stuy is claiming and how parents get evidence that the finding person was paid to take their baby to the orphanage. I find all of this to be very confusing. Thanks.
April 15th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Help me to understand why this is a bad thing. You are not saying that these children were stolen. If I was in China and had to abandon a baby I would want to be sure the child got to the orphanage. If I could not take her there myself because I would be introuble for abandoning a baby. I would find someone to make sure she got there safely. If I had to pay somone to do it I would. Perhaps this is a sign that the biological parents actually cared about the childs welfare.
April 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Cathy
I’m confused by both your comment and Brian Stuy’s response today which seems to imply that RQ should be a point person for spearheading an investigation.
It seems to me RQ is saying – to the contrary – that those with evidence of wrongdoing should report it directly to their government.
April 15th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Hola, RQ
I hope everyone is recovering. I just wanted to say I am thinking of you and your family. I believe that you are “spot on” with your posts.
If anyone out there has information, they should report it to their government agency ultimately responsible for treaties on IA. In the US, it’s the Department of State.
Thank you for taking time to email the consulate in Guangzhou.
Take care,
Hann23
my anti spam word is HUNAN???!!!!
April 15th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
I’m glad to hear you and TT are out of the hospital, RQ. Tehre’s nothing like your own bed to sleep in when you’re sick or recouping from an illness.
April 15th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
ARW,
RQ contacted her state department on behalf of others who have information that they have confided in her with.
I am proud of her for doing so and feel that because she has begun what will surely be a big investigation, we should all support her in her efforts.
I agree that everyone that has information should feel comfortable now doing what is the noble thing to do and to follow her lead.
Taking that first step to contact her U.S. State department is a big step in a long process, however I am hoping they will do what is expected of them and follow this investigation through.
It takes a community to create change and she has truly stepped up to the plate on this one!
As for me ARW, I wish I had half of the bravery she has! I did report what I could to those I needed to, however I do not have near the info she does-Thank God!
Hope that clarifies things for you in regards to my comment, as for Brian, well your best bet is to contact him to clarify his words for you.
April 15th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
RQ:
So sorry to hear of your babe’s illness. Hope she is feeling better soon.
Wanted to post this article. Finally someone is actually saying it is a 5-year wait!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/
RTGAM.20080415.wladopt15
/BNStory/lifeFamily/home?cid=al_gam_mostview
April 15th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
RQ – I hope TT gets well soon and your family can return to their usual routine.
April 15th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Cathy
No further clarification from Brian Stuy is necessary for me. Brian’s interpretation of RQ’s message on his own blog site today gave me very clear insight in to how he synthesizes information and presents it to others.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Right ARW, how in the devil did he get the idea I’m going to hold some banner for this now?
My point here is that I’ve seen no proof. I’ve had a few emails from people who say they have reason to believe their child’s finding person was paid a finders fee. But as of yet no one has told me exactly what proof they have other than the circumstantial evidence I listed above. I haven’t seen any proof, haven’t even had any proof outlined as to what it might be. That does not mean anything one way or the other, it just means no one has shared specifics with me.
Brian says he has proof, says he has the specifics. If that is the case then he should share it with the State Department or with the Guangzhou Consulate. I’m just trying to make sure the consulate is aware of what is being said so they can track down the accusations and investigate.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
I don’t want to accept the wait will be for “X” number of years. I will try to be patient until the end of the year. If things don’t change dramatically(in a positive way) by January 2009, I have a very bad feeling that it will never improve. Then I guess I will face the reality that I may have another 3-4 year wait, or we drop out.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Could not agree more arw! That is it in a nutshell.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
THANK YOU, RQ! For standing up and doing the right thing. I can not begin to tell you how much your voice of wisdom and truth means to me. The chatter has been is unbearable it has been part truth and part…confusion. Your presence has been missed. I pray your family gets well soon and you rest well.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
When we adopted our first Daughter, in 03, I thought the program was above board and that my daughter needed me. Now in 08 there is a suggestion that there is some hidden truth and what we are doing is not good or in the best interests of the children. We simply don’t know that to be true and as a community can not be expected to act on speculation or 2nd hand information. I still believe as I did in 03. For those nay sayers who want to convince me otherwise, don’t be so naive as to think people like me don’t know the risks. There are risks with biological children, risks with marriage, life in general is full of risks (if your doing it right). One has to just jump in take a chance and hope for the best results.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
RQ & TT, so glad you are back from Hospital our thoughts have been with you. Take it easy and continue to relax as much as possible. RK & GG you too.
I will be more than angry, upset and totally frustrated if circumstantial evidence or even worse lack of, fuels the media to run yet another story with a negative take on IA, for one minute of glory, when at the core of this is children, a birthmother /father who have had to make the hardest decisions of their lives and yes…waiting parents.
I wander if BS ever pondered to these depths when he was a waiting parent. And yes it is only once you become part of this process and journey you do become more hightened to the why’s and howcomes of abandonment – SWI , but that does not mean there is corruption. Where is the PROOF?? That means absolute evidence, not hearsay. Grrrrrrrrr!
Anti Spam: Mama and I will become one…… from China.
April 15th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
What did I miss? Did Brian do an interview that’s viewable on the internet?
I tend to get the feeling that he wants to close the doors to China, but I’m not really sure why. He stands to make a lot of money from innocent parents that want to know the most fundamental answers of their children’s past.
Or, perhaps he’s just riding the wave, in hopes that IF China closes it’s doors, his ego can be stroked by being able to say…”See? I told you so!”
Am I being to cynical?
April 15th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
bornfromtheheart:
You are correct in saying “it is only once you become part of this process and journey you do become more hightened to the why’s and howcomes of abandonment”, because it becomes VERY REAL when you have your child. While you are waiting, the tendancy is to not want to rock the boat because maybe you won’t be able to bring your child home. I know – I waited twice, through many world and personal events that I thought might effect my receiving my referrals. But if there’s corruption that has developed in the IA program due to its own success, it must be stopped. And the proof will speak for itself; the problem is presenting the proof to the proper person(s)…who is that? RQ thinks it’s the US State Department. I guess we’ll see.
KarenInCa:
Brian does not want to close the doors to China; he wants the process in which the children in the IA program come into the program to be ethical. If “innocent parents” truly “want to know the most fundamental answers of their children’s past”, they will be open to hearing about the not-so-pretty truths and fight for change, even if it means turning to another program to adopt a child. Many have said “Brian has his kids, so he doesn’t care,” but that is exactly the reason why he does care, and why, with my two daughters from China at home, I care, and why many other post-adopt-parents care about exposing unethical practices in adoption in international and domestic programs.
Wrong is wrong; there is no gray area.
April 16th, 2008 at 3:57 am
RQ
I suppose you have measured how risquy your ‘action’ is. It is, of course, an important issue, but you walk on an egg basket, don’t you think?
How proud will you all be if the state department decides to
halt IA temporarily until an investigation takes place? I am curious to read your answer.
April 16th, 2008 at 5:31 am
FRMarianne, you missed RQ’s point. She will NOT be holding the banner for this issue. The next step is for the Guz Consulate to contact Stuy.
April 16th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Poor TT. I hope that after the hospital she recovers quickly. Rest well!
April 16th, 2008 at 7:24 am
French Marianne,
Historically the State Department has not shut down an entire country when a few orphanages had problems. They pulled those orphanages from the system until they were sure that the problem had been resolved.
If there are a few orphanages with problems then those orphanages need to be dealt with.
Several years ago during the Hunan scandal the State Department stopped adoptions from a number of orphanages, some say seven, some give a higher number. But the best I can tell they stopped it from between 6 and 12 orphanages for a matter of months.
I’m not trying to pretend there is no problem and I don’t think anyone else should want that either. Some parents think there are problems with their child’s orphanage, and if that is the case then there should be an investigation. If Brian has information then let him share it so an investigation can take place. Getting the media involved and the IA community up in arms about “possibilities” is not going to solve or fix anything. The State Department is the only avenue we Americans have to try to actually fix any problem that may exist.
April 16th, 2008 at 11:58 am
My question is why is a finders fee so “corrupt”. I was told by my agency that it is common for a family to pay someone to take a child to the swi, so the family can remain unknown. This is NOT paying for children. They are paying someone to take a risk, to ensure the child arrives at the swi safely. I just would rather see a child arrive safely, than be left in the woods or some remote place. That is the danger in BS’s claims in my opinion. He is not allowing that the process of paying “finding people” may be safer for the children. I believe most people would walk on by if they saw a child and knew they had to submit to exams, scrutiny. This is a more complicated issue, it’s not black and white the way Brian is leading all to believe. Paying a finder does not equal corruption in my opinion. It could mean the child arrives safely, what everyone involved intended.
April 16th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
momto4hopefully:
You are misunderstanding the point.
The issue is not the birthfamilies paying someone to “find” the child and take her/him to the orphanage. The issue is the ORPHANAGES soliciting people and offering to PAY those who bring children to the orphanage FOR BRINGING THEM THE CHILDREN. There is nothing philanthropic here; it’s about money.
That is the corruption.
April 16th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Well-stated RQ.
Brian’s point in all this – I believe – is that he has convinced himself that every NSN child currently in or will be the IA program can and should be adopted in China, as directed by the Hague convention. Per the Hague, IA should be the last path for the abandoned children but the money in the program is causing issues. As painful as that is, I think at the end of the day we all tend to agree with that to some point
However, I belive that a viable SN program needs a viable NSN program. At the end of the day a viable IA program is a net benifit particularly for the children left back who are deemed ” unadoptable”.
Unfortunately, to make his (emotional) point, he has thrown out a lot of accusations questioning the entire process as whole, without responsibly addressing when does a “finders†fee equate to trafficking. But then again, who makes that call?
April 16th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
baldiny – I agree with your sentiments entirely. Thanks for clearing up what is really happening with the “finders fee” – when the transaction actually takes place.
April 16th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Is is Brian stuy saying these things? If so, I would prefer to ignore them. We all know he is all about attention for himself. I am very much against rocking the boat for Brian’s rumors, and I dislike people like him who have their (many)children causing trama for those of us who don’t yet.
wBw
April 16th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
French Marianne…
Merci mille fois! It’s like you read my mind.
I think we’re still waiting for a good answer too.
xx~
wBw
April 16th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
What I’d like to know is why so many people feel it is their duty or right to fix the alleged wrongs of the China adoption program. So many who write on this blog constantly criticize China, the CCAA and the overall process and feel that simply because they have submitted an application to China for adoption that they are somehow entitled to not only a child, but a child on their terms, e.g., within a certain time frame, an assurance that their child was delivered to the orphanage in a way that they deem ethical, etc. At the end of the day, China owes us nothing, no children, no explanations, etc. If you don’t like the way the China program operates or if you believe it is corrupt, then don’t apply for adoption from China. I think it is pure arrogance to assume that the process is corrupt based upon unsubstantiated rumors or speculation. I also don’t believe that it is helpful, to submit unsupported beliefs or allegations to the State Department.
RQ, if what you say is true, that you have seen no proof: “My point here is that I’ve seen no proof. I’ve had a few emails from people who say they have reason to believe their child’s finding person was paid a finders fee. But as of yet no one has told me exactly what proof they have other than the circumstantial evidence I listed above. I haven’t seen any proof, haven’t even had any proof outlined as to what it might be. That does not mean anything one way or the other, it just means no one has shared specifics with me.” then why are you going to the State Department with such speculative and unsubstantiated information? It may be easier for those who have already have their children from China to stir the pot, but I assure you that for those of us still waiting, we’d like to get through our adoptions undisturbed.
April 16th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Good Grief….Not the Evil “Entitlement” Criticism….Here We Go….Again….
April 16th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Dear Mods,
This is HopefulFor07. Yesterday I was on the phone for over an hour with my computer company. They were able to fix my computer, but somehow booted me off of RQ. I have tried everything, but can’t get back on from my own computer/user name. I am using someone else’s computer and have signed on with a new user name. I just didn’t know what else to do.
I am desperate to get back into the January 06 room. Mods, if you could fix the problem from your end, I would love to be able to get into the private areas again from my own computer with my original user name.
Thank you, and I’m sorry to bother everyone.
April 16th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
waitingforaugust, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
xx~
wBw
April 16th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Most of the discussion here has focussed on the money allegations on the BS site. The other allegation that he’s at least backed up with some talk about his evidence is that he claims there is a waiting list for domestic adoptions at all SWIs in China. I believe he reaches this conclusion because he had someone (a woman, I think) contact a large number of SWIs by phone and ask about the prospects of domestic adoption and this person was usually told that there was a wait. I haven’t followed the threads back to the original blog post on this so I may have some of the details wrong. It’s also impossible for me to evaluate his results, mostly because I don’t know enough about the culture much less the actual text used in the conversations, etc, to know if the responses from the SWIs were accurate or not.
But, if true, then this suggests that there’s no need for IA for NSN children in china or little need since there’s sufficient potential domestic parents.
That one worries me somehow more than the anecdotal evidence of money being used to sway birth parents to give up their children because I believe that if there are enough Chinese PAPs then there really isn’t a need for NSN IA. But I need a lot more proof of that than one phone survey.
Bob
April 16th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
waitingforaugust….Agreed, “Proof” also being my main word in my first post.
baldiny, Nowhere in my post did I say I supported corruption. How could I live with myself and explain this to my child in years to come if I did.
April 16th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Bob,
In my opinion his logic is terribly flawed when it comes to his domestic waiting list theory. You can read my thoughts on that “survey” he did here:
http://chinaadopttalk.com/2006/06/29/research-chinas-latest-blog-entry/
As for those who don’t want me bringing this up, I’ll just say that if there are problems then they need to be investigated. If Brian actually has proof then we need to get that proof into the hands of someone who can do something instead of just getting everyone riled up as he has been doing. He is going to get the media going on this, and that is very scary. Media outlets will be like wolves to a slaughter for anything that might get ratings about China during the Olympics. We do not want any of them reporting that some researcher out there claims to have proof of baby selling inside of China.
April 16th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Thanks RQ, I hadn’t seen that. He did somewhat respond to some of that type of criticism on his blog when he said that the woman only said she wasn’t local if she was asked that question directly. I couldn’t tell how often that happened. Also, I think you raise a good point that perhaps the waits are at the orphanages that do IA but that the other orphanages may not have a wait.
I get this sense when I read his stuff that he’s cherry picking his statistics to support his opinion. I haven’t looked closely, nor does he really give enough information, to really make that more than just a gut feeling when I read his blog. But I think it comes from the heavy mix of quoted percentages with lots of “I think” comments. But it’s just a gut feeling based on how he presents things. I just think a less biased researcher would be more likely to hedge their bets absent corroborating, independent evidence. I.e. language like “the survey suggests” or “this seems suspicious to me” instead of “we know that …”.
On the media question and baby selling – I think he’s going to have to show the media his proof for this story to have legs. He can’t just offer his claims. On the other hand, we can expect and increasing level of “noise” in the media from China. There’s a fair amount of potential negative stories that will go to the head of the queue on a given news cycle – pollution, wealth disparities, Tibet, etc, and this stuff from BS just feeds into that.
On a slightly tangentially different note: a friend who has an adopted daughter from China and I were discussing these topics yesterday. This friend also has a high-school exchange student from China who was across the room working on her laptop. This student (female) piped in to mention that childless couples in China can legally enter into surrogate parent agreements and bypass the orphanages completely. I’m not sure why that surprised me, but it did. She seemed to think it was fairly common. Just another random anecdote.
Bob
April 17th, 2008 at 12:44 am
RQ,
So far, we have no competent authority that has made any finding of fact on systemic corruption within the China IA program. We do have speculation, some charts and graphs, and lots of innuendo from someone whose methodology is suspect.
As a PAP (here we go, I must be wanting to rationalize) I need more information before making any decision.
I do not consider the mainstream media to be a “competent authority”. Not with a working model of “If it bleeds, it leads”
So we are stuck in a sea of innuendo and questionable research during a year where China is highly visible thanks to the Olympic Games.
I am open to the posibility that corruprion exists in IA. After all, it has happened in other countries. SWI’s are decentralized, so we are dependent on every single SWI director behaving according to the rules, yet facing pressures we know nothing about.
If I understand the BS line of argumentation, it’s that SWI’s in China are giving preference to IA instead of domestic adoption in contravention to the Hague Convention, and, that this preference is being done via economic disincentives to Chinese national PAP’s and via economic incentives to families to produce children for IA.
How anyone will be able to prove that this is the case, to any reasonable quanta of proof seems virtually impossible.
Yet, now the seed of doubt has been planted, and we are all tainted by this.
Who will ever be able to look at their child without that seed of doubt nagging at them?
In closing, I feel the allegations that have been made with no substantive proof will end up causing more harm than good. If there’s proof it should be disclosed to whatever applicable competent authority, and only if nothing is done should this have reached the community.
This is perhaps well-intentioned, but no whispering campaign or CNN BREAKING NEWS REPORT will shed any more light on the topic. It will just be more speculation. As an example, if Brian gets a sound bite on CNN, other news outlets will carry it as fact. I don’t think we ned to look too far back in the past for similar examples.
To parents who just got referrals, remember you are guilty of NOTHING. Do not buy into the implicit guilt of the “NSN or older kids are the only ’safe’ bets since no one in China wants them”.
If indeed the problem is systemic, then the problem is with China. If it’s proven that there is a systemic problem in China, then I am sure our respective governments will act to close the doors, just like they have in other dicy IA situations.
This does add to my uncertainty, but not to my guilt at having followed the IA route via China.
Sorry to be so long, I didn’t have time to summarize.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:03 am
WaitingforAugust,
UM-you have a right to say what you want but understand this: We have all paid, completed background checks, completed parenting classes, waited, completed home screenings, drug tests, FBI checks, waited, paid more, etc.
WHY? Because we CHOSE to adopt a beautiful, deserving, loveable child from CHINA. Yes, they do owe us-we signed an agreement with an agency who has an agreement with CHINA. What really irritates me about comments like yours is this holier than thou attitude. No, I do not really think that China owes me personally but they DO own every child the right to a happy, healthy life. If that is in CHINA, I am fine with that but the fact is that they opened their doors and at the very least should “grandfather” people in if they want to make changes and increase the wait like this. It is called respect, courtesy, common sense and those things are what ALL countries should do for one another! It is rude, inconsiderate, unfair and yes, WRONG for them to do what they are doing and I would say the exact same thing about America. We were just told that we cannot adopt in our county anymore-because they only want to reunite the kids with the parents so we can just foster…..which has its place and I am fine with that but do you think it would be fair for America to open up an IA program, tell clients that the fee is “X” amount of dollars and the wait is “X” amount of months and then suddenly change all the rules in the middle of the game? The US would NOT stand for that! Why? Because is would not be in the BEST interest of the child, thats why.
So forget politics, power and all the other stuff and try focusing on the fact that there are thousands of children all over the world waiting for families and thousands of families waiting for children. That is the point. If the truth was that China was doing this because they were really reuniting families or b/c they were “short” on babies, then that would be different.
Please get over that issue and let me guess, you already have kids and you have adopted from China before.
RQ: TAKE CARE OF YOU AND THE BABES!
April 17th, 2008 at 3:46 am
RQ,
You are so right. If there is a problem, why doesn’t mr Stuy hand over his proof to authorities, that can actually do something about it. It all seems to be more about the fifteen minutes of fame of mr Stuy instead of trying to solve a problem.
RQ, Thanks for your (patient and repetitive) explanation.
Regards, Smiling Lady
April 17th, 2008 at 4:29 am
I have been struggling for quite some time with the ethics of I.A. in China, and yes I am angry that all the reasons that I chose China may turn out to be a myth.My reasoning is all over the place and B.S. makes me extremely angry when he says that he has evidence, where is it? and does he have to time its release for optimum effect ?, if he waits for the Olympics he may find that his Journalists are competing in a feeding frenzy with other journalists trying to secure the most sensational story.
However this does not mean that if there is evidence of corruption we should not try to uncover the truth.
I am not trying to justify certain baby buying tactics if they exist but I want B.S. to say what he thinks will happen to Chinas’ orphans if I.A. stopped.
If it is true that the demand for N.S.N. children can be totally fulfilled by domestic adoption then I personally would move over tomorrow , provided that the families wishing to adopt do so within a system that carries out all necessary checks.
However I do not think that the black market, will stop, the people who do not fulfill domestic adoption criteria will go elswhere creating a market.
I Know that it is not right for orphanages to buy babies but if they are in competition with people who are trafficking babies to unknown futures eg paedophiles ect. This is a very complex issue in a less than perfect world and if Brian thinks that he has evidence that will improve the lives of these children then go ahead, but I hope he has thought this through carefully and is absolutely sure that he is not about to make things much worse. So Brian lets see what you have got, You are messing with peoples heads right now, at least I have a long wait for this to unfold, spare a thought for people who are about to pick up their child when you continue with this, secret information,let people see the evidence and then they can make up their own minds.
April 17th, 2008 at 6:49 am
On the topic of finder’s fees, I am curious as to how it works that people can be paid to deliver a child safely to an orphanage.
I was under the impression that the Chinese were fearful of having anything to do with abandoned children–wasn’t it just two months ago that we were discussing how a woman reporting an abandoned baby would have to undergo a GYN exam to see if it was hers and a man would have to have his wife examined if he reported an abandoned baby?
How, then, does this paid intermediary work? Is he actually delivering the baby to the orphanage, publicly handing the baby over, and claiming ignorance as to where she came from? Or is the intermediary just taking the baby to a public place so she can be found more easily?
Thanks for any insight…
April 17th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Am I alone in blindly wanting all of this to just go away? I can’t even read posts anymore without balling my eyes out. I didn’t get into this to enter some kind of international scandal. I just wanted a baby for crying out loud!! I think I need to just forget for awhile that I’m trying to adopt a baby. I’m going to end up losing my job if all I do is sit in my office and cry. Today, I feel like I should change my title to “LosingHope”.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:56 am
RQ,
Hope you and TT are doing well.
Denise
April 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am
I agree with cachinadoll. I have never felt like china owed me a child. I am not able to have children of my own and we wanted to give a child a loving home who needed one. China was accepting applications so we went through the proper process which took time and money! I do not mind waiting but I do not want to waste years of my life if there is no child at the end of the wait! I hate to say it but it is different for poeple who have children already. We have all of our hearts in this. I know it is hard on everyone but this is our chance (and maybe only chance) to be parents! When you see the wait growing like it is you have to wonder if there is a need anymore for china to have an ia program. If there is not they should stop taking applications!!!! I am the only one who feels this way???
April 17th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Cachinadoll, you claim China has stated the wait is X long and the costs are X – that is not at all true. Our AGENCIES tell us how long the wait is, and the costs as well – in fact, if you research all the agencies, the cost vary HUGELY from one to the next. The “orphanage donation” fee is going up for the first time in 14 years – yet the US side fees to our USCIS have gone UP and UP and UP… and we certainly aren’t seeing any better service as a result.
China doesn’t OWE us anything. Yep, we CHOOSE to adopt from there – but we don’t fill out a contract stating we get a child of a certain age in a certain amount of time for a certain amount of money… our AGENCIES might write such a contract, but China sure doesn’t! China has requirements we must first meet, and if we meet them, they have agreed to CONSIDER OUR REQUEST for one of their children. No guarantees, and certainly no time constraints!
The reason for the backlog is largely US – the waiting parents. Plain and simple, there are far too many interested people at the very time China has decided to scale back their NSN IA program. It’s no secret, yet people don’t WANT to believe it… which does not change reality.
Stuy seems to be confused – his “research” methods are not ones that would fly anywhere in the real world of research. Having his wife call around to inquire about domestic adoption isn’t proof of anything at all. He keeps going on about all this corruption, but doesn’t provide ANY proof. And without proof, it’s all just bs in the wind.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
I read some of these posts from time to time and can’t believe the anger and accusations spewing forth from your keyboards. I am also “in-waiting” and yes it’s very hard to think that it will be many years before I see my first child’s face, but I don’t think anger and hatred is the way to help and encourage each other. It’s hard on me, but I still have hope in the plan for my life. If the issues that arise from adopting from China are getting you so worked up, maybe you shouldn’t be adopting from China. Let’s help each other get through this time and not be so angry.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I think it’s very irresponsible for someone to take words from BS, words which we all know from experience with him are, more often than not, actual bs, and use those to jeopardize adoptions for the waiting children and the WPs. Why? Because you want to make him put up or shut up? Whose agenda is that? Is this about what is best for the children, or is it really about competition, or control?
It’s never WPs who do this. It’s always people who are finshed adopting who do it. It’s extremely irresponsible, and I don’t know how anyone could give themselves the permission to speak for all the community in this way without consulting anyone first. And, as usual, the waiting children are pawns, unaware of what is going on, and unable to have any affect on it.
wBw
PS. My computer connection died during the first post. My apologies if this appears twice.
April 17th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
FindingHope,
Don’t lose hope. Through faith, patience and perseverance, everything has a way of working itself out. I believe this and ignore the rest.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Let me say this one more time.
Brian Stuy is doing a lot of behind the scenes work right now. He is getting things stirred up and he is working to get the media involved. There have been conversations about this on the forum here for a month or more, and on other YahooGroups for longer than that. I’m not informing most of you about this, most of you have known about it and worried about it for some time. Brian is telling parents they should not wait for a NSN child, but only a SN child. He is putting parents on guilt trips for waiting in line. I find that position to be inflammatory and damaging.
What I’m trying to do is get to the bottom of the firestorm he is stirring up. If there is something there (and there are parents who believe there are) then this needs to go through the correct channels. If there is a problem then yes, it should be investigated.
That’s all I’m trying to do, get this going into official channels before we see something about it on the evening news that could be damaging.
Hunan showed us that paying finders for babies did not mean a core problem with the system. Maybe we are looking at the same kind of thing here, paying finders because if you don’t compensate them for a day of questioning by the police and submitting to a gynecological exam then no one will report a found baby.
But the fact of the matter is that paying the finders is a slippery slope. Maybe the babies being brought in now were really found, but it leaves the door open for people to see a way to kidnap babies in one province and report them “found” in another province as a way to make money. It’s a slippery slope that no one wants to see happening. So if it is happening then it needs to be investigated and stopped.
As I’ve said before, there are too many orphanages in this process for every one of them to be doing everything exactly as they should be. If one or several of them are doing things that are not by the book then it needs to be reported. If someone wants to get information to me then send it to me. If you don’t want to give me the orphanage name then at least give me the first initial of the orphanage and the province. If they’ve all got the same initials it doesn’t mean they are necessarily the same, but if they have different initials then I’ll know for sure they are different. Which is better than not having any way of knowing at all, at this point.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Hopesanddreams:
No, you are not the only one that feels China should stop taking applications. We know for certain that agencies will not police themselves if there is a buck to be made, history has shown us that. I am disgusted that ANY agency would take even one dollar from anyone for a China adoption in this horrifically uncertain climate! They are going to wind up with egg on their faces again because of greed! You might think that agencies would get a clue and direct PAPs elsewhere. I will not be surprised to hear that the decision makers in China once again sat around a table shaking their heads in wonderment, that the agencies were warned, but refused to heed warnings. History may repeat itself if agencies are expected to police themselves.
April 17th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
waitbabywait – well said. I agree with you. While some of the issues Brian Stuy raises on his blog are interesting and offer a different perspective, one should not lose sight of his “research” methods or the empirical data upon which he relies. For example, his discussion about how mothers in china may not necessarily have feelings of remorse about giving up a child, certainly doesn’t apply to all mothers in China and he only talked to TWO mothers. That is only 2 people out of billions in china, yet he speaks on the issue as if it is a fait accompli. On another issue, I think it was why girls are abandoned, he says he talked to about 5 people, one of whom was a taxi driver. This is hardly hard empirical data. This is why a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
April 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
This whole issue of “she didn’t say she wasn’t from the area unless they asked” is just so silly. The caller was from Guangzhou… the southernmost tip of China. Uh… HELLO?? China is HUGE and there are regional dialects just like here. And people don’t move around China as much as here. So having someone calling around using a pretty distinct “southern” accent is a pretty good clue that she is “not local” without necessarily having to ask. Add to that the fact that she clearly did not know “which orphanage to call” (ala RQ’s criticism) and I’d be more likely to assume that rather than being confrontational about it (which is a no-no) the orphanage worker on the phone would just dismiss her with a “we have no babies” answer and leave it at that.
It’s not that I’m opposed to Brian’s conclusions (we DID switch to SN and wouldn’t adopt NSN again)… but this bit of research just doesn’t support his conclusions of huge waiting lists at all orphanages.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Sherry In Vermont-
I did not say that “China has stated the wait is X long and the costs are X”- I said we signed an agreement with an agency who has an agreement with China. We did what we were asked/told to do. Then, China “considered” us as you put it and guess what!? We passed through review, were given a LID and here we are with NO baby!!! NOT RIGHT.
Your situation is not the same as mine. I was told “6-9 months” after LID. If China was going to change the rules in the middle of the game-they should at least give a warning ON THEIR END. To this day, the CCAA or any other Chinese Gov. has FAILED to do this so dont write things that are incorrect. Sure, they MIGHT have told some of the agencies the wait was increasing but how will we ever know that? It is WRONG, RUDE, MEAN, DISRESPECTFUL and yes, even disgusting to me! It is my right to think and feel however I want and yes, I do feel they OWE the kids.
Again, I did NOT say the owe ME. They owe decency, human rights, justice and fairness to every child born in that country wether they are SN, NSN, abandoned, adopted, fostered, orphaned or kept by their biological parents. All they have to do is the tell the truth-but according to you, the “secret” is out-then spell it out-SAY IT. Tell me it will be another year, another year 1/2-at this point it does not matter…..I just want the truth. If you really think that there are more waiting parents than children, SN or otherwise waiting than children waiting for homes, you need to take a history class or take a trip to China.
With that said-I support everyone on this post and I do not think anyone should give up if they are logged-in but I do think that agencies should be honest. The truth is, this could all change tomorrow. None of us really know what will happen. I will wait 10 years if I have to and its not because I have to-its because I WANT to.
Also, to whoever wrote “If the issues that arise from adopting from China are getting you so worked up, maybe you shouldn’t be adopting from China”: maybe you should take a psychology class. We all have the right to vent and feel-& somedays it hurts and feels bad. That is a part of what this site is for too. I feel for everyone waiting-wether you have kids or not, wether you are LID 2006 or 2008-our pain is the same because we are all human and should treat each other as such. Just because someone gets upset does NOT mean they should not be adopting from China-how rude to say that. We have a right to be upset-our agency never told us that the wait really flucuated that much-when the increase started-it hit us like a ton of bricks. We were rookies and did not realize that China would make a move like this! We still do not know why they would do this-every idea on here is a theory-not truth.
Happy Friday to everyone and to FINDING HOPE-hang in there! You ARE going to be a mom and all of this stuff will one day be just a memory-hang in there! I beleive China will do the right thing for everyone!
April 18th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Cachinadoll
I wanted to pass along to you the CCAA’s 2005 representations to the public regarding projected wait times.
Date of Post：November 29th, 2005 　　Source：CCAA
Recently, there are many speculations on the waiting time period for adoption process for inter-country adoption coming to China to adopt children. The following will help clarify such concerns:
the length of processing time after adoptive family apply for their application is correlated with the number of inter-country adopting families and the number with the adopting children waiting to be adopted. If the number of adoptive families is higher than the number of children to be adopted, the waiting period will be extended, on the other hand, if the number of children waiting for adoption out numbers the number of adoptive families, then the waiting period will be shortened. Therefore, the waiting period for adoptive families will vary according to this and not due to inefficiency or other controlling factors.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
My situation is not the same as yours, but when I logged in Dec 14th 2005, the wait was “6-8 months” – and I waited just shy of 24 months. So yeah, the ever-increasing wait DID impact me. It was like groundhog day again and again – every single month the wait was “about 6 more months”!!!!
Yet – I have been involved with China adoption since Nov 1996, was DTC for my first from China in 1999, and home with her 9 months later in Oct 2000. At the time we’d been DTC (no LIDs in 1999 yet), the wait was also about 6 months, and grew as I waited.
Historically, China adoption has had times of slowdowns and speedups – but absolutely none were because of THIS situation, one of many more people applying than China expected ((BECAUSE they’d just lifted a quota not long before, and expect the agencies to police themselves)) at the very same time China chose to ramp down the NSN program… likely because of the Hague, which has IA as a LAST resort.
China HAS been telling the agencies for the past year and a half that things are slow, gonna get slow, and there’s a HUGE backlog.
Yet, our agencies continued to send in dossiers in droves.
China’s said if we’re willing to WAIT – and the wait will be long – that we’ll get a baby in the end. NOT a baby of a certain age, but that they will honor our REQUEST for one of their children, and IF we meet their criteria, we will get a child. China’s also said that if you aren’t willing to be patient and wait, China adoption is not right for you.
If your agency didn’t choose to be upfront about increasing wait times, that’s not China’s fault. There are STILL agencies out there spouting off about “speedups” and the wait about 2 years. They’re LIARS. Not CCAA or China – but the agencies who either cannot or will not read not just the writing that’s been on the wall for going on 2 yrs now, but the actual words CCAA has come out and said.
April 20th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I don’t think anyone would ever support a child being taken or bribed away from his or her parents. I do however understand the fear that these rumors provoke especially to those who are still waiting for a referral. We’ve been waiting so long for some good news and the thought of someone going to the media to stir up controversy seems, in a word, cruel. It makes one question the true agenda of Mr. Stuy. As RQ has said if the information is true it needs to be brought to the attention of the proper authorities to take the necessary steps to first investigate the situation and then to stop it if it is happening.
I have read most of the posts – some aren’t very nice. Others have very good points and although they might not be what I want to hear, they aren’t condescending in their tone. Let’s remember that there are people typing these posts. To hurl insults or to question one’s intentions is just adding insult to injury. No one should tell someone they are wrong to feel the way they are feeling. Why is it that PAP’s are such easy targets for so many people – even other adoptive parents? As far as finding someone or something to blame, it’s human nature. It’s an attempt at making sense of the nonsensical.
As far as China not having any blame in this process, I can’t completely agree with this statement. I am with an agency, which has thankfully been upfront about the wait times, although it hasn’t made it any easier. Had they been dishonest I probably would be angry but I have decided to accept what I cannot change. As to the idea that the wait is soley the agencies fault because they continue to send dossiers in the face of this huge backlog, I have one question…who’s accepting them?
April 28th, 2008 at 10:53 am
RQ
2 weeks ago you’ve sent an email to the Guangzhou Consulate asking if you could open up a dialogue with them about what is being said behind the scenes right now so they can open their own investigation.
You said you should expect to hear something in five days.
What are the news, then? Longing forward to reading a post on this touchy issue.
Regards