April 3rd, R4
We have two agencies confirming this date now. One of them posted a C&P of the CCAA’s internal box, and the other is an agency that generally gets it right. I don’t normally jump to an R4 with only two agencies speaking up, but I’m making an exception this time in part because of the holiday. I think if the other agencies were open and paying attention then we’d have heard from more of them.
I will begin the process of creating a new formula for a smaller column this month. If we have another tiny month next month then I’ll need to create another column. I had hoped that we’d seen the bottom and that I would never have to make another column, and it breaks my heart to think that the CCAA may have once again lowered the bar.
I made a statement a while back that if the CCAA once again patterned after days referred instead of numbers referred that we’d know for sure this is being orchestrated. Once before when we went from a huge month to a smaller month the CCAA just lowered the number of referrals so the days per month was similar. If that is happening again? It truly breaks my heart. So many babies who aren’t being adopted, so many parents who want to adopt. It should not be so hard to put them together.
Do we have a right to insist that China allow IA? No, of course not. They are a sovereign country and we don’t get to dictate their actions.
Do we have a right to speak to the cruelty of not allowing it? Yes, I think we do.
I recently heard from several people who had adopted from the same orphanage. This yahoo orphanage group had raised many thousands of dollars every year to send to the orphanage, without giving specific numbers I’ll say it was well over ten thousand dollars a year. But this year they decided that since all of the reports say there are now less than a dozen babies (where there were over 100 five or more years ago), the orphanage group decided their fund-raising efforts were no longer needed. Jump forward a few months and someone talked to the orphanage director about it when they took their child back to visit the orphanage. The same orphanage director who had been saying abandonment was down and China could be proud that families could raise their own children now? When someone visited the orphanage and explained that they had stopped fundraising, the director pulled records out that showed the orphanage still has just as many babies as always, but that they are all in foster care. The orphanage is paying the foster parents more money to take care of the babies than the orphanage spent to keep them alive when they stayed in the orphanage, and the director was depending on the money raised by the orphanage group in his budget.
Long ago, when I was in the Big Brothers Big Sisters program, my Little ended up in foster care at 11, and stayed in foster care until she was 18. She was with two families in that period of time, and both families were pretty good families (actually four families, but only two of them were long term, that she had time to get close to). I was allowed to remain in her life, and she spoke more than once to the fact that her foster family was being paid to keep her, that it was a job to them. In her mind, they weren’t taking care of her because they loved her, she was just a paycheck to them. Never mind that her mom was in prison and wouldn’t allow an adoption. Never mind that they spent more on her than they got from the government. Never mind that I kind of think the first family would have adopted her if they could have…. the fact that they were being paid to care for her negated anything they did to show her that they cared for her.
This gives me mixed feelings about most of the abandoned babies in China being in foster care instead of being allowed to be adopted. On the one hand, they are staying in their country of birth and being raised by a family. On the other hand, they will never have their own family. And on a third hand, there was a story a while back about families fostering a daughter so their son will have a wife when he is grown. That one really gives me the heeby jeebies.
As I have said before, China will do whatever China feels is best for China. We Americans see human rights in terms of the individual person, China sees it in terms of the country as a whole. If they feel it no longer benefits the country for them to allow IA in large numbers (and apparently that is how they feel), then they’ll stop allowing it. As they have done. We see it as a human rights violation, they likely see it as doing what is best for China.
It is my hope that referral timing was stretched out, and then this small month, because the new director is making changes and this is the best they can do while getting used to the changes. It is my fear that the number of babies allowed out of the country in their next fiscal year has once again shrunk, and that I’m going to have to make a smaller column.
December 26th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Disheartening, I really was looking forward to CCAA getting into April in hopes of more days being matched per month.
On a different note….thanks for everything you do Rumor Queen. I love your web site. I have been following for years but rarely post.
Angie
LID 5/31/2006
December 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Well, to shine a potentially brighter light on the situation, it could be that the new director has been put in this post to clean up the mess the previous director got them into. Perhaps he is there because, while China was ok with the slow down during the Olympics and the time afterward where the press would still be kind of hanging around, they want to stop the negative press that is currently starting to increase regarding the conflicting reports with regard to IA. He could be focused on changing the process, to the degree that there is more required of families in order to apply, but, that the flow of adoptions being approved will become less of a negative focus while still not approaching the level that would sound to the outside world that they are somehow exporting their children. They also, Im sure, have to address the disparity between men and women in their country, and switching the focus to SN would alleviate the stress on their economy to care for and support those SN children long term, freeing up funds to raise the remaining healthy girls. So, it may be that NSN is not going to increase, but, perhaps the SN path will become streamlined and once the backlog of families in the NSN path has decreased, both due to attrition and to slowly processing the larger groupings of families, the NSN path, with new and more difficult to meet restrictions, would shorten and still maintain some control over the numbers.
From the sound of the news coming out of China since the new director took over, he is not saying NSN is over, or will be over, but, he is definitely indicating changes in the criteria and a focus on a more stringent process. Whatever reasons they claim, or how valid those reasons are, the result will be nonetheless the same. China will maintain their honorable place in the IA world, while increasing the availability of healthy young women for its growing male population, and, decreasing the financial drain that a huge SN program has on it’s budget. With the environmental issues it’s country is facing that are obviously causing so many SN’s in the babies born to families ill prepared to provide for them, or perhaps unwilling to when they could abandon the child and take a chance that the next one will be healthy and able to take it’s place in their society and care for them in their old age, shifting the focus from where it has been for so long to the SN program makes perfect sense.
When you consider the large groups of families that went through the system just a few years ago, which created a cottage industry in China, ie facilitators, shops geared toward adopting infants and toddlers, and all the financial benefits the locals experienced during the NSN heyday, it doesn’t make sense for China to eliminate that industry entirely. Then again, those same industries could adapt to the growing SN program, and to some degree, the increased tourism that was a natural result of the Olympics. So, when you look at it from a purely fiscal standpoint, keeping NSN open on a smaller scale and increasing the scale of the SN program makes perfect sense.
I think the new director is following a very clear plan, something already decided on and mapped out, and that no, NSN is not going to be eliminated, but, yes, at least until they get the numbers to where they want them, the wait will increase, and whatever it takes to justify that to the waiting families and the agencies is what will be offered as explaination in order to achieve the planned result. China is an ancient culture. A decade or two here or there, or more, makes little difference in the grand scheme of things.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:05 am
An agency and government officials in my country just came back from meeting with the new director at the CCAA and they said that the wait time will NOT get better any time soon because adoption inside China is high and going very well (I think like you RQ that China simply doesn’t want int adoption anymore). This agency is starting adoptions with new orphanages in an asian country (they started talks with this country when they saw that the wait time for China was getting high) and will offer (maybe even highly suggest, I dunno) their families waiting for a NSN adoption in China to change countries (priority will be given depending on your LID). BRAVO to this agency !
I honestly believe the writing is on the wall … BUT WHY IS CHINA STILL ACCEPTING NEW DOSSIERS ?! This is not my agency but I will call them after the holidays to get more info and see if we could “possibly” change (IF there is still room). My daughter is very disappointed that she won’t get a sister from her home country (China) but with a LID of end of 2006, what are the chances of us EVER getting a referral ???
RDT.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Thanks for this great post RQ. If the next few months are also this small, we are looking at a year for April……this was my fear.
I really feel for all the families with mid to late 2006 LID’s thinking they are going to see their child’s face in the next year or so. Our large China only agency keeps feeding us the line that March was such a large month and this is a big part of the slow down, never once showing uninformed families the visa numbers so they can see the entire picture. Our agency never talks about the reduced number of NSN, only the increased number of families. When I bring it up they try and play it off….this is also an agancy who tells new families still to this day, the current wait is almost 4 years BUT things could speed up at any time!!
I wish agencies were forced to not accept NSN applications any longer, we know most will not stop on their own. Like RQ says we have no control of what China decides for the future of these children, but someone could have some control over these agancies.
I am happy for all the families and children matched this month and yet sad for what looks to be a new low in China IA.
Very sad with a 11/06 LID
December 26th, 2009 at 11:20 am
BTW, I am not surprised at all with the story of an orphanage having just as many babies BUT in foster care …
RDT.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am
I know that CCAA didn’t match must this month, but a few days are better then no days at all:) Hoping for more days next month for all who waits.
Wait hope Dream
December 26th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
wishing for more lid dates next month, but THRILLED because our lid is 4/3/06!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAYY~~~~~~~
catherine
December 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
My suspicion for quite a while has been what you wrote RQ. As you said, we think in terms of human rights and China operates differently. It is very frustrating for us to be so close but yet so far. My 6 year old (adopted from China) really isn’t sure if she will ever be a big sister…something she REALLY wants!
Beth
LID 4/21/06
December 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
I can’t imagine the pain and anger many are probably feeling right now. I, too, would be very upset if our LID were not 4/3/06. While my heart pangs for those in line behind us, I am thrilled that we may FINALLY get to see our daughters face soon!
A friend of ours had a LID of March 2007. She saw the writing on the wall long ago and went to the SN line very shortly after getting her LID. She has had her daughter home for almost a year now. She did need heart surgery, but is doing excellent now. Frustrating from our perspective because we thought we were so close to a referral so we decided to wait it out in the NSN line. We are very happy for her, though, as from the way things are going, switching to the SN line may have been the only way it was going to work for her.
I pray for all those in line yet that things will work out for you in the end, one way or another.
December 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
RumorQueen,
Thank you for addressing all the concerns and frustrations and suspicions I have had for years now. I agree with you 100%. I could read frustration in your post, and I thank you for being frustrated for the children especially and for the PAPS. Trust me, I wish I could take that frustration away from you and the rest of us.
December 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
RQ says:”This gives me mixed feelings about most of the abandoned babies in China being in foster care instead of being allowed to be adopted.”
I am confused. Is foster care now an alternative to adoption rather than a prelude to it? My daughter was in foster care from 3-13 months.
M2I
http://www.MyChineseShamrock.blogspot.com
December 26th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
It depends on the province. Not all provinces have NSN’s in their orphanages. Look at the referrals and where they come from. Friends who work and volunteer for SWI’s in China have heard that they are focusing on SN’s children. Now, you can determine for yourself the reason why. Is it because they genuinely care about these children? Is it because they have found a way to unburden themselves with the care and maintenance of these children. Domestic adoption is definitely up in some provinces. The goal is to place children in foster care, just as western countries do. Foster care does not mean adoption. There is not an abundance of babies as people think ALL of China that are available for IA. Now this information as per usual is not factual it is what is told to us by friends who speak with the Directors, the Director of my ds’s SWI and statemements made by family. I believe NSN’s will cease. Adoption from China was not going to go on forever.
It is up to the agencies to stop receiving dossiers. They are not going to do that because they are a business. Our first agency closed their China program in 2007. Our second agency closed theirs last year.
December 26th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
1st off congrats to those who got a refferal in this 1 day batch. (For those who don’t realize it 4/1 & 4/2 were weekend days), so I would consider this a 1 day batch. Now to Teria: R U kidding me? THERE IS NO BRIGHT LIGHT HERE!! We do not want a special needs child and you act as if SN is the way everyone needs to go. I’m sorry if this sounds cruel but for those of us who chose NOT to go SN simply because we do not feel as if we are prepared for a commitment of that nature, (& that commitment is sometimes MORE than some people realize), then by all means we should not have to feel as if that is the ONLY way we are ever going to get a child. If China is trying to steer people towards SN ONLY then they need to STOP accepting NSN dossiers. The agencies need to STOP telling people that the wait COULD speed up anytime, when they know damn well it WON’T.
What really pisses me off is this: Recently the fees were increased to make MORE babies paper ready YET, we are actually seeing less babies refferred. You try and figure that one out???????????
Lastly as someone who is LID 06/06 we have seen highs at times but unfortunately we have seen more lows, and this day is without a doubt the lowest. Our agency (pretty sure it’s the same as EthioChinaadopt), continues to feed us the bullcrap too. They have told us that AFTER March things SHOULD improve. BULL$%^T. I can trully say had we known then what we know now, we would NEVER have gone this path, and feel as if we may just be one of the couples that China hopes will fall by the wayside and drop out of the program. That decision will NOT come lightly but w/ an 11/10 renewal of our I-797 (for the 4th time) this MAY become a reality. Over 4 years to make someone WAIT for a child??? THAT’S purely just CRUEL.
December 26th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Hey RQ, thanks for your insight. I am surprised and welcome you forthrightness about the situation.
RQ>> “Do we have a right to speak to the cruelty of not allowing it? Yes, I think we do.”
I think you are right in this and the statement before this about China’s sovereignty is correct. At this rate our voices need to be heard. For the last three years everyone has been too afraid to speak out due to fear of retaliation and things have steadily gotten worse. If the next referrals do not show a significant increase then it seems to me we are looking at a defacto (statistically) stoppage of the NSN program.
We need a collective voice while protecting our individual identities. I am not saying that we need to embarrass China in any way but our voices and concerns need to be heard.
Also as mentioned above it is not logical to keep accepting Dossier at this point. Does anyone know our have a good guess at how many Dossier are going to China these days?
For the fist time I wish my LID was June 2007 instead of June 2006 because it would be easy to go to another country and have this over with. I am sure I will fall out of my seat when I see your new charts. You might want to consider waiting for the next batch before putting out updated charts.
December 26th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
One question…isn’t this now two batches for December? Isn’t this a good thing if we get more referrals in January?
December 26th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
lightiv – I’m just saying that I think it’s okay for people to say it, I’m not advocating doing something to attract media attention.
All I was saying was that I think it’s okay to say it’s wrong. There are those who say that China can do what they want, and they say that every time we try to talk about this. While I agree that China gets to make their own decisions, that doesn’t mean that I have to agree that said decisions aren’t a terrible breach of human rights. There are families wanting to adopt those babies, families who have gone to a great deal of trouble to prove they are capable of raising a child. It is wrong to make babies have to grow up without a family of their own when there are so many families who are prequalified to adopt them, just waiting to and wishing and… it’s wrong.
I’m having trouble saying this… if there were no families lined up to adopt them then putting the children in foster care would be the ideal. But China asked for families to sign up for their adoption program, and they have the families lined up and waiting. Sure, they can change their minds… but just because they can, doesn’t make it right.
December 26th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
I don’t understand WHY they are doing this. What is the motivation? I am so sad with this news. I thought we were getting closer, but no.
LID 6/23/06
December 26th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Mom2Isabel~
I do believe that foster care is an alternative to adoption now and has been for some time. And, from china’s perspectice I do not think that they see this as “hiding” children at all. They had a problem, they’re addressing the problem. Exactly as RQ has said, not from the perspective of what is best for the individual but what is best for china as a whole.
Initially, China had an abandoned child problem and developed a very efficient way of handling it. A program so streamlined that they entire process could be completed in less than a year. Then they realized that they’d become the face of IA, an exporter of children. This was an embarassment. So, then china found a new way of dealing with their orphan problem, encourage domestic adoption and organize foster care. This I’m sure is modeled after the US system which we all agree is highly flawed. But, still it is the western way.
Again, china has, in their very practical way, identified the problem and developed an efficient way to address it. They’re a very practical government.
I would say it was about 2 yrs ago that I read –and I can’t remember where –about an entire village that was left somewhat empty of young people and men who had gone to the cities to work. They were left with many somewhat older women and men who were in need of income. The “government” encouraged providing foster care as an income supplement idea. The writer said that the majority of the villagers jumped on board and were providing foster care. I never got a full sense of how big the village is question was or what percentage of children were involved.
Sadly, RQ’s post seems right on target to me.
December 26th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
The China IA programme used to be so well run and for many, myself included, it was distinguished from other IA programmes because of the fact that it maintained a high level of consistency. For the most part, adopters knew exactly what was required by the Chinese Government in terms of well scripted adoptive prerequisites and the general time frames for adoption were clear to all. The slow-down is one matter – but I do not comprehend WHY the CCAA have allowed themselves the incredible disservice of deviating from these operative certainties which existed in their programme which was the envy of the IA World. If they would simply state, outright, that our dossiers were now taking xx months to process; or that your June, 2006 dossier would not receive a referral until June, 2011 then everyone could take this information and make decisions accordingly. It would behove everyone to KNOW. Adoptions are major life decisions and surely there is added risk in no one really knowing what to expect. Many of our dossiers are almost laughably out of date negating the precise CCAA pre-requisites of days old. Again, this can put more families at risk. I simply cannot comprehend WHY the CCAA can’t tell us what is going on! We may not like referrals that take half a milennia, but at least we’d know and it would take the pressure off of everyone (agencies; families; CCAA). I do feel very passsionately that THIS is what we should be advocating with the CCAA. The right to the well run programme that we originally signed-up for and the right to know!
December 26th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Right on lightliv!!!!!!!!! I am so sick and tired of this entire process!!!!!!! I have been patient and there has been no good news in the 4 years that we have started this wait. I am so angry with all of the crap that is throne at us. We have all done everything that was expected of us in accordance with the adoption process. I feel lied to, betrayed and above all else a terrible parent. I had to explain to my children this morning why there would be no little sister joining our family. I kept my silence, bit my tounge when I felt betrayed over China’s lack of disclosure. But no longer. I feel like calling all who will listen as to the disgusting way that we have all been treated.
This entire process feels like a cash grab by my agency, government and above all others CCAA. Also I am happy for all of the people that have benifited from this experience but I am tired of being told by them how China does not owe us anything. I think that statement is much easier said by those that have already recieved their child/children. The only thing that most of us who are still waiting have done wrong was starting the process 6 months too late and to continue to believe when truely the situation is hopeless. The least that the darn Chinese government could do is supply us with an EXPLANATION and a REFUND!!!!!
December 26th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
eversopatientnot
Just to clarify, I didn’t say it was a bright light for everyone, just that, amidst the trending toward NSN coming to a near screaching halt, at least some of the children in China will still be offered to IA as an alternative to staying their entire life in an orphanage. The fact that China is not as focused on NSN is not, in their view, so much an emotional or moral decision, but, one more of practicality. As was said in another post, they are very practical. Is practicality the best policy for finding homes and families for children who need them, absolutely not, but, that is the way China operates and as long as they are permitting adoptions through IA at all, then that is at least something. While you may not be looking into SN adoption, there are many families that would and that included my family. We started out in the NSN path, but, were open to SN, which was how we found the daughter we are waiting to get TA for now.
If you aren’t willing, able, or feel prepared to pursue an SN adoption, and want to adopt a child from China, then no, there is no bright light for you. The fact is, while I don’t think SN is the way for everyone to go, and would discourage it for someone that isn’t prepared for what can and does come with that path, I do believe staying in the NSN line also brings with it some risks including the possibility that the wait may be in vain, especially if you follow the thinking of those who believe China is phasing the NSN program out and will at some point stop those adoptions altogether.
Having been in the China adoption community for almost ten years, Ive seen it ebb and flow and huge changes announced with little or no notice that they were coming. If a NSN child from China is in your heart then no one should question why you are sticking it out. If you are hoping to adopt from China, but, are open to other options, then this might be a good time to explore those options, and for many families SN is a path they would consider and should not feel any stigma for leaving the NSN line. The same should be said of those who leave the China adoption path entirely. We all have to follow our own paths. I just wanted to state what I saw as the reality that the SN program is the one China seems to be shifting its main focus on.
December 26th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
well, let’s see…if these three days are indicative of what 2010 will bring, then china will refer about 500 NSN families.
they are saying there are 30,000 families in line. so it will take 60 years to get through the backlog at that rate.
those LID at 30 they will be 90 then. a little too old IMO to parent an infant….and if you were 50 when you started, you’d be 110, so you’d probably be dead.
i wonder if we can will our LID’s to our children and grandchildren in the even they want to adopt some day?
December 26th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
We chose SN’s because we wanted to. However, our cutie guy is not SN’s for us and to be honest has had no behaviorial, attachment problems that some of the NSN’s children have with their families.
In saying that we were financially able, have great healthcare and did a ton of research before we adopted our little man. Before we bought him home, we went with all his information to specialists and interviewed and discussed what he may or may not need. We were fortunate to receive comprehensive medical information because part of his SWI was run by a western organization. The problem is that there have been many PAPS who just wanted to go SN’s because it was quicker and not much thought or preparation went into the what was needed to care for these wonderful children. I haven’t noticed it on this forum but others have shared how difficult it is, especially the behaviorial problems.
We have 2 NSN’s girls and 1 SN’s boy. We would love to adopt another SN’s boy but we do not qualify now.
When we first adopted there were many SN’s baby girls with very minor medical problems.
A friend of ours has over the years adopted 5 SN’s children from China. All their SN’s were extremely minor and are not even considered SN’s.
Unfortunately, now children with such minor SN’s, babies and girls do not seem to be on any Waiting Children List. We wanted a boy, so we had no problem, and then it become very competitive with PAPS, which IMO was terrible.
Only families know what is right for them, and people wanted to hopefully bring into their home a NSN’s child, then that is what is right for them. However, NSN’s does not mean no needs at all.
December 26th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
noeindinsight Thanks for the post it really made me laugh. In fact I am still laughing. Love the idea of willing our LID’s to our grandchildren. LOL Too funny!
December 26th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Noeindinsight, i’m with waiting4baby32 on your post – thanks for the laugh. I myself love the idea of willing our LID..lol.
LID 08-08-06
December 26th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
This may seem like a strange thought process, but since RQ shared the story about the fund raising issue supporting foster care for one of the SWI’s I will put it out there.
One of the things that struck me when I first started the process 5 years ago was how passionate the parents where for Chinese adoptions once coming home with their children. I was so impressed by the numbers of people who came home and started foundations, did fundraising, or found ways to help out on an ongoing basis. I was excited to join that club. Since then I have learned about many wonderful organizations like HTS and LWB who are doing great things.
Over the past year a part of me has wondered, though, if there is kind of a backlash going on (not the best choice of words, but can’t find one). The kids are getting much better help and care due to the efforts of these great organizations. This makes me thrilled for the kids who are helped by them. However, I have wondered if the financial support being given and better care options has made China less motivated to find forever families for these kids. It appears that they are “taking care of their own” this way, but in reality, they are taking care of these kids with monies sent by people from all over the world who have been touched by adoption and these children in some way.
Is my thinking way off here or is there some ways that doing “the right thing” to help is inadvertantly hurting these kids chances of being in families????
December 26th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
RQ – Is it too soon for a “when” post??
Very sad about the conversations that are taking place. It is an emotional roller coaster to say the least……..
:(
December 26th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
waiting4baby32 Says:
December 26th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
noeindinsight Thanks for the post it really made me laugh. In fact I am still laughing. Love the idea of willing our LID’s to our grandchildren. LOL Too funny!
shemajo40 Says:
December 26th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Noeindinsight, i’m with waiting4baby32 on your post – thanks for the laugh. I myself love the idea of willing our LID..lol.
LID 08-08-06
Willing LID’s! Kind of like how you get season tickets for the Packers or Steelers! Unfortunately for many of us, willing the referral to our children or grandchildren will never even be an option if the China adoption was the way to any children at all. Can we leave the LID in our will to nieces or nephews?
December 26th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
I have no problems with China reducing the # of NSN int adoptions BUT would have REALLY liked to know this BEFORE I started this 2nd adoption …
RDT.
December 26th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
About what you’ve said RQ on the fundraising money that used to be given to the orphanages, maybe this could have an impact in a few months. And how about the new director? No ones knows yet what will be his position about IA…
I am happy for those who will receive a referral soon, this is a great Christmas present. Just hope it will be our turn one day… Sooooo looong… (it’s our 33th months anniversary of wait today…)
December 26th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
a friend from china who visited her parents there about 6 months ago told me there were many providences actively recruiting foster parents. in some cases almost begging/guilting families into taking in some children.
the problem i understood from her – and before the olympics was talked about quite a bit is that SOME families will foster five and six babies/infants and it’s worse for the children than the SWI’s are. you might think that some of the SWI’s have one caregiver for six children, but they are on shifts – it’s not one woman caring for five to six infants almost 24/7 with whatever help she can get from her husband and other family members. i have a friend who adopted a five year old who was in foster care and the foster mother took care of three other babies in addition to her and a seven and nine year old biological sons.
also, i think it’s wonderful the families that have raised money in the past for the SWI’s their children came from. but if the chinese gov’t would prefer these children go permanently into foster care – as is their right – then they should foot the bill IMO.
December 26th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Wow I am so sorry for all of the waiting families. While I hope this small batch is a fluke I have a feeling it will be the norm.
China has every right to do what they think is best for their babies, but do they not have an ethical obligation to be honest about how long the wait will be? I assume that many waiting families put all of their financial eggs in the China basket. The up front money is gone, thus the other family planning options are gone. When China accepted their dossier did then not enter into a contract to provide that family with a child?
I don`t know what the answer is. I don`t think media attention would help, that it might in fact make things worse. I DO think families have the right to vent and ask the hard questions. I DO think these families have the right to be heartbroken and be verbal about the fact that they are heartbroken.
December 26th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
My oldest dd’s orphange (different country) was quite terrible. However, over the years with fundraising, huge donations, parents support and many volunteeers and trips with supplies, the place is doing great. So much so that they have enough money to build a much larger orphanage and a school. They also have land where they will be growing their own produce and livestock. Living conditions have improved dramatically. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the government there, it was ALL due to people who have adopted from there and other sources. The government is very slow where adoptions are concerned now, it has always been an unpredicatable process though.
My ds’s SWI is run by westerners. There were many volunteers and donations. However, they only had SN’s children and they believed that they should be placed in loving homes.
However, this was at the discretion of the Director. If the CCAA told them otherwise they would have to abide.
December 26th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
The point you bring up about the foster care is very interesting. I think you are dead on. I have been participating with a foster program for 3+ years now. When I started I figured we would sponsor a child for 3-6 months at a time at most and see a constant turnover. We were assigned a 2 month old in 2006 while we were paperchasing. It was 3 year before she was placed through IA – a NSN girl, by the way. It still makes no sense. She was eventually adopted but I have been so upset that it took 3 years to place her while the wait expanded (and now we have been sponsoring another girl for 9 months), that I am pulling out of the foster program. I hate it – the children will suffer, not China – but I feel like I’m feeding the long wait.
December 26th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
I would like to know if their is a “when” post in my near future……..
catherine lid 4.3.06
December 26th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
I hardly ever post, but I am addicted to this site. We are LID 6/20/06 and are heartbroken about the wait. I don’t believe that China owes me anything, but I do believe my agency does. IMO, they work for my DH and I. I don’t expect miracles, but I do expect honesty. We were told two months ago, that we would have a referrel in 6 months. I knew better, but what if I was one of those waiting parents that were not as informed? I can’t believe that the agencies don’t have any clue about what is going on and what is going to happen. When we signed on with our agency, not only did I give them our money, I gave them my heart. Does that make sense?
I am sorry I am venting…..
December 26th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I guess it isn’t a real surprise that things aren’t “speeding” up. Breaking the news to our six year old daughter that her baby sister isn’t going to be joining her was heart wrenching. With a lid of April 2007, our daughter could have a child and give me great grandchildren before her sister came along! Maybe letting our children “inherit” might be the answer….our daughter wanted to adopt someday too…I wonder if it will be quicker for her being Chinese……somehow doubt it..maybe if she starts her paperwork now!
Our agency only deals with NSN from China…also not telling us much information. I am very disappointed with how things are moving along.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
with march 2006 out of the way i feel like we can see the light at the end. kyleigh said this too- i got on and saw that another batch was sent out in dec i was thrilled. even if it’s a small batch, it’s still 2 batches in 1 calendar month
this entire crazy process has been more frustrating than we ever dreamed. like everyone else, we had no idea that at 44 months and waiting we would be praying to see our daughter’s face; maybe by 48 months, 50 months, 56 months…..
yes, we are frustrated but we are keeping the positive side because we are close, we haven’t considered a switch to SN or another country but i can’t say what we would do if we were lid 4/2007 instead of 4/2006. those have to be near impossible decisions to make all the while trying not to break hearts of all involved
we are waiting it out-
tt 4/21/06
December 26th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I think your impressions about foster care are on the money RQ. China sees it is not in their best interest to let healthy girls leave the country due to the shortage of women. I don’t think the Chinese have a good understanding of why people want to adopt children from their country. They don’t get it. I have a friend from Beijing area that lives in the U.S. now. She keeps asking, why adopt from China? Why? She doesn’t get it. I think they are suspicious of our motives or something. Maybe we are getting closer to an official pronouncement about the program from the CCAA.(?) It would be really good to hear what their policy is about NSN and SN programs for IA rather than guessing. Yeah and also next year we will see the creation of a new sun in our solar system.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
I have a question. And I apologize up front if I am way off base, as I am rather new here. I thought that the reason most Chinese little girls were being abandoned in the first place was because the families were only allowed to have one child or were discouraged from having large families because of the population in China. So if that is true? Then why is the government there now recruiting long term care foster parents and domestic adoptions with in their country which essentially increases the family size and costs the Country more money with foster care fees than if the birth families raised their own birth children.
Makes me wonder too if in some of the provinces that still “enforce” the one-child rule, if there is an underground program where the birth families are getting their birth children back as “foster” children. Could that happen?
December 27th, 2009 at 1:15 am
I have not read all the comments-so sorry if this was already said.
Yes, I agree it is easier for those of us with children already home to say “China doesn’t owe us anything” with regard to allowing us to adopt their children. If I were still waiting I would be angry too. BUt I really think people are angry at the wrong people. China does have the right to do whatever they want with their children (just as the US does or any other country). If they choose to focus on SN adoptions-which makes sense since it’s more expensive to raise them and we (the US) are willing to adopt them- then that is their right. If they want to adopt a foster care program instead of cont. with IA then that is their right. As far as I remember-China did not receive any money from our adoption until we were matched. So it’s not like they are making millions of dollars off of PAPs and not delivering. I don’t understand why PAPs aren’t more angry at their AGENCIES??? These are the people that have taken your money-not China. Yes, in early 2006 they were innocent and no one could have anticipated a 4+ year wait. But what about those with LID’s of 2007 and on?
I don’t blame people for being angry-I would be too. But getting pissed at China isn’t going to do anything. Either wait or drop out-it’s your choice, harsh but true. And to the person that said they don’t want a SN child-I know of MANY people (I am one myself) that went the NSN route and ended up with a SN child. It happens-hopefully it won’t happen to you, but it could. And we love our children just as much as our NSN children and it’s a tad insulting that everyone acts like SN children are the bottom of the barrel and 16th best.
December 27th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Tracy,
We’re well aware of what is harsh, but true. No one is giving the agencies a free pass on the blame game. There’s plenty of blame to around, and the agencies and CCAA share in that blame. Getting pissed at anyone isn’t going to do anything, but we’re still pissed. Just as you said you would be. And after almost 4 years, I think I have a right to be pissed at whomever I choose, regardless of whether some find it misplaced. After all, it’s my problem. Whenever I read “if I were waiting,” I cringe. The bottom line is that you’re not. So, it’s really pretty impossible for you to step into my shoes right now, and completely understand that after almost FOUR YEARS I have no idea if this adoption will ever happen. Where I project my anger is really up to me, and I think RQ did a fantastic job today in explaining why we can still be upset with China whether others agree or not.
Everyone is not acting like SN is the bottom of the barrel. That is simply an untrue statement. The SN program is thriving and competitive.
December 27th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I feel for everyone waiting – it is impossibly hard. To feel frustrated that the children are in fostercare instead of SWIs is unfair, however. As the mum to 2 daughters cared for by foster mothers in China, they are amazing women who loved our girls and are in regular contact with us. So sorry, anyone who says anything even slightly negative about fostercare in China, I feel is caught up in their own journey, (which is understandably very hard) not that of the children!
December 27th, 2009 at 8:27 am
I’m so glad that the topic of fostering and AP’s donations has been aired. I recall reading, maybe a year ago, in the HTS magazine about a foster mother who was so glad that the orphanage where her foster kids came from was now a HTS supported orphanage as the kids were healthier. That’s great but what made me recoil was the mention of the 20 kids she fostered – it wasn’t clear if it was all at once but she seemed to go regularly to the orphange to collect another child.
And that made me think – are these people vetted? trained? supported? or is it just the attraction of the money as someone else mentioned. Are there mini-orphanages in villages under the guise of foster homes so that the offical places look empty?
In the western country I live in I am aware of foster parents who only do it for the money and we have a great social services support system. How attractive must fostering orphan kids be (with no one to be their voice if they are abused, mistreated) in a country with no social service support system?
And as we know in China some places will vet the foster parents and other places wont be so thorough – local differences in policy application abound in this country.
And yes the question of all the $ sent to support the children that may never be adopted. It seems to me that we are dammed if we do and the children are dammed if we don’t. China is not paying to support it’s children but expecting us APs/PAPs to do so. I wouldn’t mind if they hadn’t spent billions building Olympic stadiums!
They are acting as there is a quota so come out and tell everyone the maximum number of children they will allow to be IA in a year. Then people can make decisions and get on with their lives. As a 2nd timer with a LID of late March 07 the big step for us is telling our child that they will not be getting a brother or sister. And that’s gut wrenching when you know there are kids prohibited to have a family of their own because of policy. That stinks.
December 27th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Eversopatientnot – I’m just curious. You said in your post that you clearly do not want a special needs child. But .. we all know that more SN’s are being referred as NSN, not to mention the undiagnosed SN’s that turn up later and issues from being institutionalized. Heck, even RQ’s own Twinkletoes, who was referred through the NSN program, requires speech therapy. Since you said you do not want a special needs child, what do you plan to do if, when you do receive a referral, you are referred one of these kids? I hope you recognize that it is a distinct possibility.
Sorry for everyone having to go through this pain. I originally was logged in at the end of August 2006, but we were referred our daughter through the SN program in December 08. She is so perfect for us. I can’t imagine how we’d feel now if we chose to wait.
December 27th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I, too, have heard horror stories about some foster situations… situations where there are six to twelve babies in a home, and when the husband goes to work and the bio-child goes to school, the mom is at home with all of those babies by herself. At the orphanage the caretakers have someone to help as backup if she has six of them screaming at the same time. In a home, there is no one to act as backup. There are also stories of abuse (the kind that leaves broken bones and scars) that have been tracked back to foster parents.
That’s not to say foster care is always bad. There are stories of foster parents who thought they were going to raise a child, and in some cases were not given any notice that the child was going to be adopted. They had no chance to try to adopt the child, he or she was just taken from them with no options, and the adoption happened right away so they didn’t have time to try to file their own paperwork. Most of the time the orphanage tries to keep the AP’s away from the foster families, but in some cases they manage to find each other. Sometimes this happens when the foster family hangs out in the lobby of the hotel until they see a family with “their” child and then approaches them in tears, wanting to say one last goodbye, or wanting to ask for pictures to be sent back to them, some kind of contact so they know how the child is growing up. They thought they would be raising this child, and they are distraught and heartbroken that the child has been taken from them.
I’ve heard lots and lots of stories. In many cases foster care is being used as long term care, so the parents are told they will have this child until she matures and is old enough to move out on her own, if she chooses. And no, from what I understand, there is no vetting process. There are no social workers to check out the home, or to stop in every once in a while and see how things are going. And there are no classes to take or books to read or videos to watch that would help educate new foster parents.
And, there is no requirement that the child get an education. In the SWI most of the kids at least got an elementary school education. From what I understand, not all of the children in foster homes are even getting an elementary school education. It’s up to the foster parents, whether they can be bothered to get the child back and forth to school, to see that homework gets done, etc.
As always, everything varies from province to province, and even from city and town within a province. Some SWI’s actively work to check on the babies in foster care, but most seem to have the “out of site out of mind” philosophy going.
December 27th, 2009 at 10:12 am
So then this begs the question, is domestic adoption truly up? Or, is it foster care that is really rising?
December 27th, 2009 at 10:35 am
From what I gather, domestic adoption is up. But not so much that it should be emptying out the orphanages.
There was no domestic adoption ten years ago. Now there is a good bit of domestic adoption. So yes, it’s gone from none to some, so it is up.
But, there are foster families raising a whole lot of kids. Kids that ten years ago would have been in an SWI.
I should also point out that this varies by area. There are reports that in some cities there is a waiting list for those wanting to adopt. So, in some areas, DA is giving most of the babies a home. You can’t look at one situation and assume that is the status quo for all of China.
December 27th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
It surprises me that with over 40 comments no one has mentioned the great BENEFITS of having a child in foster care. I can tell you personally that it is a very good thing as both of my kiddos (dd NSN, son SN) have been fostered and I am very grateful for that. So I’m speaking out for the foster moms!
Both of my kids are from Jiangxi. Most of the SWIs in this area foster out the kids because it is better for their development. My dd was in foster care for 11 months and my son was in foster care for 20 months, both with same foster parents throughout. They both grieved heavily with us at first but were able to form attachments very well shortly afterwards.
In fact, we requested Jiangxi for our second child for this very reason. As it was very clear with our DD that she had received loving care. She was very social, very animated, and did little things like try to feed us and brush our hair. She was underweight, which is often true with Chinese adoptees, but that has more to do with how kids are fed there and the nutritional balance (less protein). Our DDs’ foster mom hid her phone # on our daughters pjs and (through a translator) we were able to phone her and ask questions. We have tons of information about our dd’s early days now.
Flash forward to our son (who we brought home on Nov 19). He is SN, with cleft lip/palate, and weighed a hefty 26 lbs when we received him. He is VERY social, very loving, and has adjusted very well to us. Judging by the fact that he does not appear to have been disciplined at all (he doesn’t like no in any language, LOL), I would say he was spoiled rotten :-D. His foster mom even snuck cookies in his backpack.
Both of our foster moms included pictures for the kids to keep, and asked us to update them and provided their addresses. I am VERY grateful to these wonderful women for taking such good care of our little kids.
I think in any system you will find bad apples, same is true of any foster care arrangement in any country. Yes they need to get paid, they need to cover the additional costs of caring for a child. Esp in China, as these are often poorer people who don’t have alot to give financially speaking.
just my (many) cents!
December 27th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I am saddened to see a once very good and mostly honest program become so cloudy. IMHO, none of us in the NSN program with the exception of April 06 can truly say… This will happen. I have deep doubts for my own adoption with a May 06 LID. I do believe we will see more changes and even less certainty as 2010 rolls on. I think Ccaa has sent the message loud and clear and they are pretty much not in the slightest bit concerned with WAPs. They will take care of their country the best way for them. Keeping healthy females to balance out their gender problems and adopting out those with sn’s that they would have to care for. Actions are screaming to us but we keep waiting for words. I hate all this speculating. Will they, won’t they, when, how many, domestic, foster…. It is enough to drive us all insane not having any answers but to keep speculating over and over.
And for all those waiting- you can vent away to me any day. I get your anger even if it is misguided. I am there with you and feel your pain. Many have decided to leave, but those remaining need an outlet. Venting is healthy, holding it in is not. This is not black and white- there are many shades of grey with all sorts of emotions caught in the middle.
5/29/06
December 27th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Personally, I would like to see some changes made to the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption that would provide more protections for prospective adoptive parents including the following:
1. A requirement that the sending country must stop accepting new applications for a program once the wait time for placement exceeds a reasonable period of time. (I’d say two years maximum.) Countries should be required to keep SN and NSN programs separate. That would prevent them from justifying a huge backlog in the NSN program by pointing to the fact that placements in the SN program are meeting the standard.
2. A requirement that Hague-approved agencies must offer a refund of at least a significant portion of fees if a placement is not made within the required time frame. It would not be acceptable for said agency to require that PAP’s pursue an adoption of a child through another of the agency’s programs in lieu of a refund, including the same country’s special needs program. The differences between programs are too significant to make this a requirement. If the program that the PAP’s originally signed up for is no longer viable, it should be up to them to decide what their next best option is.
3. A requirement that any increases in fees, either from the sending country or the Hague-approved agency cannot be made retroactive. Fee increases would apply to new applicants only.
Just my two cents.
December 27th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
raelynns mama – Your children were fostered until they could be adopted. What I’m talking about is foster care that goes until the child is 18. Where children are placed in long term foster care and there is no chance of them being adopted.
Do you think your children would have been better off living with those foster parents until they were grown? I’m not sure, but I think that might be what you’re saying.
There is definitely a debate to be had there – whether a foster family in a child’s birth country is better than having their own family in another country.
My personal opinion is that having your own family, who loves you and who is not being paid to raise you, is better. But there are going to be those who disagree with me. Perhaps I should do a blog post on that, let us debate it one day.
December 27th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
mingliang – I like the idea of a time frame, so that the adoption takes place within a certain time frame of the initial home studies, and that if a country falls behind that time frame they should stop accepting new applications for that program. Once they get back into the time frame they can begin accepting applications once again.
December 27th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Babies in Guat are in foster care, or were.
They were well loved and taken care of. They were paid because the carers were poor. The agencies made sure that the children were in what they considered wonderful fosterhomes.
Everyone on the IA forum that I belonged to who bought home very young babies from Guat and are now 7 and 8 have had no problems with them at all. Infact, those that wanted a todder, which was very unusual at that time because only babies were available had very easy transitions due to their fostercare. All the parents said their foster mothers absolutely LOVED their babies and the handover was extremely painful for them.
Most keep in touch with the fosterparents of their children.
My ds came from a wonderful SWI, he spent weekends with caregivers and was spoiled along with the rest of the children. Although he was in a SWI, the children were fostered out over the weekends. I have tons of photographs of him enjoying wonderul outings with various families and volunteers. I even have three home movies. He remembers nearly everthing. Our ds’s transition at the age of 4 1/2 years was easy and the bonding was instant. I attribute this to his wonderful care and the fact that they created a loving family environment for all the children. He would of been very happy living there. We still keep in touch with the Director of his SWI and one very special caregiver who made ALL t he children there feel very special.
December 27th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
i love your rq! on so many levels!
now give us a when post! please!
catherine lid 4/3/06
December 27th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
RQ, that is what I mean, fostered until adopted. I certainly wouldn’t want to see a child in foster care until adulthood, as that wouldn’t be ideal.
Definitely I think our kiddos are better off in a “forever” home and family, whether its here or in China, so that they have loving parents to care for them. We are certainly glad they are ours :-D
December 27th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Scratches head…
I did a When post right after the last referrals arrived. You can see it here.
Can’t very well do another until this batch arrives. Referrals could arrive next week, or they could arrive in three weeks. No agencies are saying anything has been mailed yet. Unless I missed it. Even if something is on the way, though, there would be no guarantee it would be referrals.
—
And I’ll say again 2qts4me – the discussion today isn’t about fostering until adoption. The discussion today is about fostering instead of adoption. Huge difference.
December 27th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
IMHO the Chinese people see fostering children in private homes–even if lifelong and without any training or screening of families–preferrable to letting them be adoped internationally. In this way the children are still in China regardless of lost individual potential. It breaks my heart but I think this is the decision. I also believe it is somewhat of an illusion that there is any difference between NSN and SN programs given undiagnosed issues and early trauma for all our children. It could just be me. I adopted a DD from both programs and perhaps it’s my way of equalizing among them to see things this way.
December 27th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I know, but as portlandval says this is a possibility for China. My dh’s Aunt has fostered over 100 children, not all at once. Just because a family says they foster 20 children in China, doesn’t mean that is all at once. Where friends/family volunteer they place children in fostercare with families that adopt them.
Not all fostercare stories are horrow stories.
Our ds’s nurse fostered two children without adopting them, and they are now in their 20’s.
They grew up in a happy home. The problem is you only ever hear about all the negative stories about fostercare in the media. Rarely do they report on the success stories unless it is on daytime TV. Maybe China wants to adopt this kind of fostercare for their families.
There are many families in CHina taking care of children that are not theirs, and if raised in a loving home grow up to be fine.
Those that adopted from Guat have said that their kids could of grown up happily living in their birthcountry with the foster families. They just wouldn’t have access to the same things that we feel is essential for a child’s growth, which in our society today is not always a good thing, judging by the social development of some children.
Adoption is not the solution or the necessarily the best thing for every child.
December 27th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
RQ- I’m a little confused…..if the internal board has changed to say they are done through 4/3 then shouldn’t referrals be on the way? Then a “when” post would be due. Most US agencies have been closed for the holidays so there has been very little actual information and I think all of us 4/3 ‘ers are looking for something……anything! Thanks again for all that you do!!!!
December 27th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Nothing is for sure until the agencies have the referrals in their hands and phone calls are being made. I’ve never done a When post before phone calls were made. Ever.
—
2qts4me – I agree that all foster care is not bad. The example I gave in this blog post, of my Little — she was with two really nice families. But they weren’t her family, and there was this big gaping wound there because of it. In her mind, since they were being paid to take care of her, they couldn’t possibly love her. And thus, all of the things parents must do that antagonize teens, like insisting on a curfew and and good grades, weren’t seen through the lens of love. And in her case, it was impossible for those families to adopt her. Imagine if she had been open for adoption and the families had still not chosen to adopt her, just so they could get the paycheck? That’s all I’m saying, is that the difference in a family who raises you because they are family, and a family who is given money to raise you, is a huge difference in the eyes of a child. I’ve been there as a sounding board for a teenager, and I don’t wish those feelings on anyone. My personal belief is that truly belonging to a family is the best choice, even if that means going to another country. I understand that there will be those who disagree with me, though.
December 27th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
First, hugs to all of you who are waiting. I know it is very difficult to sit empty handed for so long, especially for the first child. I do want to caution those of you in the NSN program. I read the comments from eversopatientnot and cringed. We also received our daughter from the NSN program. She was in fostercare from 10 days old. She was 10 months at the time of her adoption. She is now considered a special needs child. She requires a lot of special and expensive therapies. I would not have changed my mind at adoption, but it would have been nice to be prepared for the possiblity of a child with needs. I want to remind you that these children to do not come with the promise of perfection, just like birth children. Be prepared before adoption day to parent a child with special needs. I’m not going to lie and say it is easy or fun every day, but, oh, how I love this child. She is the best part of my life. Second, I have had contact with UNICEF for many years. Take a look at their website. You will find that foster care in the child’s country of origin is preferable to international adoption. I think that explains how the international community looks at international adoption. I can see both sides, but I think every child deserves a family of his/her own. I will keep hoping for a speed up.
December 27th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
RQ,
I think the children age out of foster care (and orphanages) in China at 14, no? I wasn’t clear if you referred to age 18 about US foster care or China in your reply to raelynnsmama. That is one thing that makes me know it was best for my DD to be adopted, not stay in foster care in China, no matter how good it may have been. (She had a fantastic foster mother from all indications that we have). Where would she have gone at 14?
December 27th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
You are correct, in most areas of China they age out of the SWI system somewhere between 14 and 16. When HTS is involved I believe they can care for them longer.
I am aware of a specific situation where people volunteering in China worked to try to find a place for a 14 year old to go when she aged out of the system and had no place to go.
When I mentioned 18 I was speaking of the US system. Although, in the US they are covered until they are out of high school, even past 18. Or they are in my state, anyway.
December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
I do not see what is to cringe about eversopatientnot’s comments. He or she is right on in the points that they make. We to signed up for NSN and that is who we intended to raise because that is what we honestly concluded we would be capable of caring (mentally and fiscally) for.
When we got in line we were told that the only type of medical issues would be (at most) bed bug bites, colds and developmental delays as a result of malnutrition and being in the orphanage. While I can understand receiving a child with a undiagnosed problem. That is wholly different than receiving a child with a known or repaired SN. Repaired SN children such clef-lip etc have other issues that present later in life.
Now understand that I do not view SN children any different than I do NSN children. I love them both equally but I know what I am prepared to care for and I know that God will give SN parents a special blessing that I will not receive.
I think one of the most important things is that we all be honest with who we are and what we are prepared to deal with. I trust that we all have done this and for China to suddenly decide that we reached the wrong conclusion for ourselves is just immoral and unjust on their part. I guess if they cared about that they would not be doing what they are doing to us now.
December 27th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
lightiv, I understand your frustration. I think that we all must be honest about what we can deal with before we become parents. I think it is unrealistic to assume that because you are in the NSN program that is what you are going to get. NSN means that there are not any major problems detected as of present. It is hard to detect everything at such a young age. Believe me when I say that there is no difference between getting a child with a known SN and one that is diagnosed later. I would say that is easier to deal with the known SN because you are prepared. I want everyone to be know that early intervention is key. If you see a problem early, don’t chalk it up to international adoption issues. We did and we wasted valuable time. I hope that you receive the child you signed up for, but keep this in the back of your mind. I would not trade my sweetie for NSN, but then I loved her from the first minute I saw her picture. You are right about the fact that China does not care about the feelings or wants of international PAP. I think they have made that perfectly clear. They care about China and its countrymen. Their concerns are very different from ours. I have traveled to China several times for business. They are more concerned about their image as a world player and their economy. Human rights are not a large concern at the moment. That could change at any time. My thoughts are with you all as you wait.
December 27th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Unicef has done a lot of damage IMO
http://tinyurl.com/yz2whs8
December 28th, 2009 at 12:22 am
That is true. Those that oppose IA encourage fostercare. I can see both sides.
I contribute to an orphanage in a country that is privately run by the Catholic Church and has a patron (non religious) who helps raise funds for the children there. Most of the children do have parents, but their parents are far too poor to take care of them. The children have a good education and leave when they are 18. Both the country and the orphanage Directors believe that their children are better off being raised in their own country among their own and immersed in their culture. Although, it would be nice for each baby/child to have a family of their own to care for them, most of the children would not want to be separated from what they know.
While this is good, if it wasn’t for the donations and generosity of those outside this country then these children would be living in conditions with the very bare necessities. The government does nothing to help the people there. People have asked about adopting certain children there if the government gave permission, but the INS here says that the children are not abandoned but placed there, and they have living parents.
Our first agency says that there are many countries with a dire need to help orphans and they have tried to talk about viable adoption programs but there are many road blocks and opposition to IA.
December 28th, 2009 at 12:42 am
<<>>
SN adoption is not for everyone, but I think the point that was trying to be made was you can have a NSN referral and end up with a SN child. I know or know of people with NSN referrals that ended up with deaf, autistic, Hep. B and/or C, speech and attachment issues. I am one of those parents. It’s better to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best in my mind. It’s OK not to move to the SN program, but don’t get it in your head that you are NOT going to get a SN child-because you won’t know that until you are already home and in love with that child.
December 28th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Hello all, as a family who was LID 10/13/06 I do feal the pain of those who are still waiting. This past August 24th we took a referrel of a special needs child. She had a cleft lip repaired and a cleft pallet still in need of repair. When we started the process back in Jan of 2006, SN was not what we were looking for. But as the years went on and the wait got longer we became more open to it.
We just got back from China on December 17th and this has been the best Christmas ever. From 8/24 to 12/17, 116 days and we were home. Now I know many agencies do not have SN programs. But if your does I encourge people to look into it. My wife and I could not deal with this wait any longer. And now since we have been home for 10 days we could not imagine our life with out our little girl.
Folks what I am saying is if you want it to happen, you can make it happen. 116 days from start to finish and we have our little girl.
Hope every one has a wonderfull new year.
Matt, Laura and Tianna
L I , NY
December 28th, 2009 at 8:51 am
At least two Scandinavian agencies are today confirming cut off 3rd april.
December 28th, 2009 at 11:03 am
We sponsor a child in foster care in our daughter’s birth city (Qinzhou) and the ONLY kids permitted in foster care are children who are “adoptable”. If it’s determined that they’re not adoptable, they’re pulled out of foster care and placed back into the SWI. I guess I assumed this was the case all over China.
December 28th, 2009 at 11:17 am
It has always been our belief that abandonment rates have not decreased as significantly as some would have us believe, nor have domestic adoptions. Children who, in times past, would have been in institutions, are now in foster homes – yet still “attached” to a local orphanage. It does not surprise us at all that the Director of the orphanage you mentioned is now ready and willing to pull out the books to confirm that fact.
Unbelievably sad, frankly, because it’s all about image and not about the immediate needs of individual children.
China4
December 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
As a mom to a SN child, it may surprise you to know that I agree with eversopatientnot. I know alot of people in the NSN lineup who are getting impatient and considering switching to SN. Which is GREAT, if that is what you truly want. I would not like to see parents taking on SN parenting strictly only because they, completely understandably, are discouraged and frustrated with the wait. Its a much bigger decision than that. For us the wait was about 40% of the equation, esp since we didn’t want the age gap between our 2 kids to get any wider. The other 60% was that we agreed in our homestudy that we would be happy to accept a child with correctable SN from our home country (Canada), so why not apply same logic to China? We went directly into the SN program without hesitation. However I will tell you there were other conditions on the list that we knew in our hearts that we were not prepared to parent, and you have to be honest, for your child and for yourself, about what you can truly do. Anything less is a disservice to the child.
That said, sometimes the fear of the unknown is overblown in your own mind, so I would recommend researching fully if you are thinking about it but doubtful. I have a dear friend who was considering switching from NSN to SN, cleft lip/palate condition, but not sure. After spending an evening with my flirt of a son, she told me he completely made up her mind for her (awww thanks) to go ahead with it. Sometimes you have to see it in person to know if it will work for you.
:-D
December 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
This whole idea that staying in one’s culture simply for the sake of it is unbelievably patronizing. How many children adopted internationally would trade their families for this vague idea of culture? I’m very concerned already about how I’m going to explain this attitude to my daughter when the time comes. It’s a sad commentary that in the age of globalization, we have organizations out there who choose to highlight borders and divisions over love.
December 28th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
There is another explanation for the slow down of babies available for adoption. Over the years, I have worked with quite a few people from China. Some, I have gotten to know pretty well. One person finally shed some light on this tremendous slow down. Several years ago, the government put Ultra sound equipment in the doctor’s offices in the countryside. These have been in the cities for years. Enough said. I don’t want to turn this into a pro-life/pro-choice argument, but the culture is what it is. When we picked up our second daughter one year before my friend revealed this to me, I noticed that I didn’t see any pregnant women. We were in one of the biggest cities in China, and I still didn’t see ANY pregnant women. I believe this person because of what I saw.
December 29th, 2009 at 12:21 am
I agree with that too mmsmom.
Another thing. Some relatives just came back from China and visited a couple of cities. Not only didn’t they see any pregnant women, but they saw hardly any children. Being men they only noticed this after a couple of days. They say you usually see women with babies and toddlers. They didn’t see any. One of his business associates said that a lot of women are now working in the cities and making money. They have learned to enjoy the things that they can now afford, and are not so quick to get married or don’t have parents pushing them in that direction. They have more control over their lives. Those that do get pg.
obviously can afford to use those services now.
They said that things have changed so much in China that it is just an eye opener. Certain regions have remained the same and in poverty.
December 29th, 2009 at 4:24 am
I’m a bit confused about the number of reactions and the intensity of the reactions. Like Vikki (Dec. 26) some conversations made me a bit sad. Here’s why:
When we read about an adopted child being abused, there were about 30 reactions from readers. When we are confronted with a further slowdown of de IA-program in China, there is more than two times as many reactions on the board. Especially the reactions about the program being a lie and that China (CCAA) should be more open about what’s going on and give us clear explanations for the slowdown, amaze me. They amaze me in a negative way.
To me this is all rather selfish and you wouldn’t expect reactions to be like that from us, people who are or one day will be parents to a child from China. China is allowing us to create a family or to extend our family. Shouldn’t we be humble and grateful? I think a Chinese person would be just that.
Then about the Hague convention. Is it not all about providing a local solution for the abandoned children? As I understood it, it is. So that’s why local foster care is preferred to International Adoption. All China does is to implement the Hague convention. And like most things the Chinese do this thorougly. You may not like it but China follows the rules that we all signed for.
Of course I am not happy with the long waiting. All I want is to be a family and to be home with more than two people. I just won’t allow me to blame China or the CCAA. To me that’s just not fair and as I stated in the beginning of this post there are much more troubling things going on. So the Smiling Lady is a bit sad today. I’d better start checking the babies post. It will make me feel better.
ps Vikki, our time will come. You’ll probably have a very special Chinese NewYear. Hang in there. That’s what I do.
RQ, thank you for making it possible to share our thoughts on your blog.
December 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Hello Everyone,
I am a little behind reading posts this month, and realize that this may not even be seen. However, I am so emotional about everything I just read (I could not stop crying), and another slow month, that I felt I had to write. I have not posted for about a year , and the last time I posted was with an old user name which I forgot. The sad part is that it is a year later & here I am, still with no baby. My LID is 10/13/06, and we are waiting for a first child. 2 years ago, when the slow down kept increasing we invested more money, & time into a second program and chose Taiwan. Here I am still waiting in 2 programs that are both going nowhere fast. Recently someone mentioned Columbia, & we are now working on that as well. I am now 40 years old , my husband is 42. We started this in our mid 30’s. We have been married for 13 years. I feel as if the whole adoption process is one big cruel joke, which is LOL at me. It is very easy for everyone who has children to give their opinions & tell their happy ending stories. I have watched person after person have a happy ending. I realize that I am rambling, but I agree with many of you. This stinks. We and I are educated, responsible people that did research. My husband even works in a hospital with the international adoption specialists. We chose China over Korea, and other programs on based on their predictability and reputation. Wow, did we make a mistake. I have prayed , I have wished , I have researched other programs. I even was sent a referral in October from Tawiin which I lost a month later , due to the birthmother deciding to keep keep child in country.
I feel as if all we do is hit one brick wall after another. Why can we not just receive what we signed up for? Some mentioned a contract in their post. I agree with this. When I send my dossier, and it was accepted , we agreed on a contract. It may sound cruel to some but China does owe me and everyone who signed up & is waiting what they promised me. This is CRUEL.
I am heartbroken beyond words. Yes, I do believe it is even harder for me and all of the other first time parents that are waiting. I made it through Christmas by the tiniest thread. What can we all do to make this situation speed up , I just want to be a Mom!!! When will it be our turn???? Also, to the person who mentioned in their post that us waiters should decide to stay or leave, that is much easier said than done when you have a child at home. … I have done nothing wrong in my life to deserver all of this, I am so exhausted and heartbroken, for 13 years now , all I have wanted was to have a child with the man that I love so much.
If it were not for this blog, I would have zero information as well.
December 29th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Hello Rumor Queen,
For some reason I am unable to log out, perhaps you can help?
many thanks!
December 29th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Smiling Lady,
I never read anything on this site about an adopted child being abused. I don’t check this blog every day, nor do I comment often. Had I read about an adopted child being abused, I would never have posted anyway. What good does commenting do in that case? It just adds more noise to an awful story. Millions of children who are not adopted are abused as well. There are rotten parents out there, sadly. If this is an issue that’s important to someone, commenting on a blog is pointless when there are so many organizations needing volunteers and financial support.
People are on this site primarily to check rumors and secondarily to vent. We all know there are babies out there. I luckily, brought one home in ‘04 and am waiting for another. What most of the people who are on this site go through daily is very difficult, and I feel for them. They came to a program expecting basic information and courtesy as well as a child. Calling them selfish serves no good purpose.
December 29th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
4everwait, I’m so very sorry for you. Truly.
China4
December 29th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Smiling Lady, foster care is never better than adoption. It’s temporary and does not, typically, provide for the lifelong needs of children. That’s why some (most?) of us believe the “local solution” is inherently flawed and detrimental to the longterm well-being of children.
China4
December 29th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
I am rarely around here anymore….for us, what’s the point? We are NSN, LID 07/20/07 & me checking in here today seeing basically a one day batch confirms the very reason that I don’t need to check in. My hearts aches for all of us waiting. In some ways, I agree with bits of what most all have said here in this thread. The only thing I feel that I want to say is that yes, absolutely as they have proven, China CAN & WILL do whatever they want-but do they have a right to just because they can? Is is right morally? I say no. No, they do not owe us. But, they did enter into an agreement with our agency. & if they are not going to hold up to their end of the agreement, well fine. That’s their right, BUT they should offer an explanation. To just leave vulnerable families, who are not getting any younger, hanging out waiting with no information is not morally or ethically right. People need to be able to find resolve. If it’s not going to happen, they need the confirmation to make a decision of whats best for their family so that they can move on & choose another program or resign to….well, what is for many the unthinkable. I believe that China does know what they have planned for IA & although they don’t have to tell us, they do in fact owe us PAP’s information. & what about the agencies. Somedays I wonder if they all know it’s over & it’s a conspiracy between the two entities. Wow, huh? We do in fact have a right to know IF & WHEN. That’s not much to ask. That’s all I am saying. It’s a simple contract between two parties. If they are going to stop it, then stop it. This is torture for waiting families. It is nearing a sickening process that is becoming joke worthy & that is so sad. Because as all of us know that are involved, this is SO not a joke to us!
On a much happier note, on November 23rd, my husband & I had placed in our arms the most beautiful baby girl we have ever laid eyes on! We adopted domestically & we finally have our daughter in our arms & have the family that we have dreamed of for so long. She is perfect & we are more in love with her than we ever even imagined that we could be!
We are still in the NSN China line….our agency was one of the ones who did not have a SN program. Just mere weeks ago though we received an email from them that they are working with China to get one up & running. They have hired a new director to oversee it & so on. Will we switch? Probably not. For us growing our family was our only intention. We chose China because it was a safe country to travel to, the children are primarily well cared for & healthy (in comparison to other countries) & the wait at the time was reasonable. It didn’t matter then & doesn’t matter now to us where our babies come from-& we have believed all along that our babies were already destined for our arms long before they were placed there-so, for us, if it’s not China-that’s okay. As long as it’s somewhere & we have our family. Right now we are busy with & enjoying our new daughter. So, for now we will leave our Dossier where it is & just wait to see what tomorrow brings. But, I do believe that this has become a very dark process that offers little hope to those of us wanting a child through this process….before we are in diapers ourselves that is!
December 29th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
4everwait….I hear you & feel you & totally agree with your every word. & being someone who was just mere weeks ago where you are; childless~ I can echo what you are saying a hundred times over! I suppose maybe it’s just that a new little one keeps you so busy that your focus is shifted & I think also too because that lingering feeling that motherhood may never in fact be yours is taken away….but, you are right. At the very least it’s different when you have child/children in the home & are waiting verses being childless & waiting. That’s certainly NOT to lessen anyone’s pain that is being caused in all of this or to make one person’s journey more difficult than the next. We are all victim’s here in what is seemingly becoming one big scam. But, I did want to validate your feelings 4everwait. At least where I am concerned, what you are saying is exactly true. & as I said before, I too agree with you about the “contract”. They made an agreement. Even if not directly with PAP’s, with our agencies & they empowered our agencies to make a contract through them with us, so it’s virtually the same thing. & the holidays? I feel you there! I am so glad for you & all other PAP’s still waiting that they are over & done! The terrible thing is knowing how many more all of you will have to endure with the way this is going. No end in sight, is there? & yes, telling others to leave & move on is so easy to say. Again, I think the fear of never being a parent is so haunting that you just can’t bear the thought of pulling out of a program that might finally help you realize your dream of growing your family. You are willing to go through this torture for a chance…& that’s just cruel on the part of the organization pulling the strings. & that’s what it is…strings & we are the puppets on the other end. Honestly, in some ways I wish they would just pull the plug. I think for most PAP’s, especially those childless, they will never be able to bring themselves to walk away. It would almost be merciful for China to just stop this madness. However, I don’t think they will. What would the agencies do? I mean CCAA has to have the agencies to facilitate SN, right? They are still taking NSN Dossier’s-do you think that at least some of the agencies know more than they are saying? I don’t know…maybe not. Just a thought. I pray that’s not true. If so, it brings new meaning to the word cruel.
December 30th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
My sincerest thanks to China4, and Journeytomia for their thoughts.
Have a safe and blessed New Year.
4everwait -LID 10/13/06