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aliciag
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Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« on: January 13, 2009, 08:46:40 AM »

"Who wants to buy a baby? Certainly not most people who try to adopt internationally. And yet too often that's how their dollars and euros are being used."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/outlook/2009-01-11/adoption/?hpid=opinionsbox1

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Windthrow
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2009, 09:52:57 AM »

for those interested this article has been discussed here for the past couple of days

http://adopttalkcanada.com/forum/index.php?topic=361.msg3015#msg3015

and includes a post from the author herself that provides some interesting commentary
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windthrow
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kms
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 09:57:25 AM »

It's just an opinion piece meant to lead people to "the lie we love" article. Interesting marketing technique to get someone to your website.  

I found what was included in the WP part of sloppy. The beginning talks about USD and Euros being used unintendedly to buy babies so I thought it would at least be inclusive. Yet it talks only about the US. US doesn't use Euros? I had thought from that line it would charge all receiving nations but per usual it's only the US's fault. In fact it appears to be more the US's fault than Vietnam's? They didn't need a freedom of information act document to get that US embassy has concerns about Vietnam. All they had to do is google to find adoption/state/gov. It clearly states the cooperation that it is willing to go through with Vietnam for them to start up again. And it warns citizens not to enter into an a Vietnam adoption plan until everything is sorted out.

And what of other countries receiving from Vietnam? Is it only US that's there is a halt? Why or why not?

The flow chart could just as easily follow with domestic baby trafficking. With the exception of 2 different sets of government officials in the chain.  

The opinion piece is meant to provoke and leave questions I guess as it's purpose is to lead the view elsewhere.  

Kristine
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waitbabywait
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 11:33:24 AM »

I wonder why there's not one shred of references given for the article. Where does all this "knowledge" come from?
How does the author know there are no abandoned babies and that all all are stolen? Certainly there are countries where we know there are full orphanages, and I think sometimes the systems in some other countries are set-up to make the process inordinately expensive for adoptive parents. The perception, I think, is that anyone who can/wants to adopt internationally is rich.
In the years that I have been waiting for my adoption to (hopefully) be completed I have seen so many of these articles that I really wonder if they aren't just standard sensationalistic fillers. God knows newspapers are dying for readers. I have yet to see any where a real investigation has been done. And they all tend to vilifiy Americans, as if we are the only ones who adopt abroad.
I would prefer that hungry authors and failing newspapers would either do some actual reporting, with sources, or leave it.
wBw
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »

You know...what I would say to this is just one comment that is an indicator of other things.  I agree that corruption can happen but based on the number of IA, around 40K per year between the US , Canada , EU and AU that are done ethically through agencies, it is hard for me to believe that all or even many of these are through corruption.

The author specifically mentions Nepal in her post.  I speak daily with the secretary of my son's school who grew up a missionary's daughter in Nepal.  She actually spent her teenage years working in orphanages and is passionate about IA and adopting from Nepal once she is married.  She says there is a great need there with the children.

So...I think that this type of article is spun based on the lenses it is seen through.

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Windthrow
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 01:09:21 PM »

I wonder why there's not one shred of references given for the article. Where does all this "knowledge" come from?
How does the author know there are no abandoned babies and that all all are stolen? Certainly there are countries where we know there are full orphanages, and I think sometimes the systems in some other countries are set-up to make the process inordinately expensive for adoptive parents. The perception, I think, is that anyone who can/wants to adopt internationally is rich.
In the years that I have been waiting for my adoption to (hopefully) be completed I have seen so many of these articles that I really wonder if they aren't just standard sensationalistic fillers. God knows newspapers are dying for readers. I have yet to see any where a real investigation has been done. And they all tend to vilifiy Americans, as if we are the only ones who adopt abroad.
I would prefer that hungry authors and failing newspapers would either do some actual reporting, with sources, or leave it.
wBw

The author has done a fairly in depth investigation as I understand it and if you go to this site

http://www.brandeis.edu/investigate

you can get country by country assessments her and her team have made including lots of references for the info

my own view is that there is lots and lots of value in what her team has found and I never got the sense she is saying that all the children are stolen, just enough for there to be concern...she also does a very good job of differentiating between different programs including identifying some of the best ones..ie Thailand
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 05:27:47 PM »

I don't disagree that there is corruption in the adoption arena.  It has been well documented.  You will note, however, that the author singled out China as the exception to her "healthy child" rule, and did not include China in her flow chart.

This is one of the biggest reasons that, after MUCH research, DH and I decided to pursue adoption from China rather than elsewhere.  That's not to say that there is no curruption in China, but that we believe the incidence to be far, far lower.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 01:27:41 AM »

Of course there's corruption as with most anything you can seek it out and will find it.  The worst kind would be child trafficking.  I can't begin to imagine what I would do if I were one of these mom's whose child was stolen.

That said, I felt the numbers ($) seemed way  off.  Maybe not if using private lawyers, but I don't know of any agencies with adoption expense quotes that would add up to what one baby would have cost beginning to end on her chain.  We paid $25,000 for our first adoption beginning to end but those fees were mostly spent here on paperwork with various government departments and much also went into travel expenses.  In China, up to recent the SWI was only getting $3000 and now $5000.  Those figures don't even come close to what she has mapped out.  I know she's not talking about China, but I don't know of fees in other countries that add up to what she's showing one baby would have cost.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 02:05:50 AM »

Of course there's corruption as with most anything you can seek it out and will find it.  The worst kind would be child trafficking.  I can't begin to imagine what I would do if I were one of these mom's whose child was stolen.

That said, I felt the numbers ($) seemed way  off.  Maybe not if using private lawyers, but I don't know of any agencies with adoption expense quotes that would add up to what one baby would have cost beginning to end on her chain.  We paid $25,000 for our first adoption beginning to end but those fees were mostly spent here on paperwork with various government departments and much also went into travel expenses.  In China, up to recent the SWI was only getting $3000 and now $5000.  Those figures don't even come close to what she has mapped out.  I know she's not talking about China, but I don't know of fees in other countries that add up to what she's showing one baby would have cost.

Actually, I thought that the costs were pretty in line with what I've seen - or lower.  The last Guatamala numbers that I saw were $35K - $40K+.  A quick search of India, Nepal and Ethiopia fees with various agencies is in line with what was published.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 02:16:49 AM »


Actually, I thought that the costs were pretty in line with what I've seen - or lower.  The last Guatemala numbers that I saw were $35K - $40K+.  A quick search of India, Nepal and Ethiopia fees with various agencies is in line with what was published.

But, those quotes are for the total parent expenses beginning to end, which are a conglomeration of fees that go to many different government agencies and travel and not to pay the specific costs associated with acquiring a child as outlined by the author's illustration.  She shows many people receiving money as they pass the child down her chain.  I don't see the profit in that if ultimately the people that hand the parent the child (people who acquired the child to adopt out) only receive a small orphanage donation.  I don't know of any orphanage donations at $35K-$40K.
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kms
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 09:17:22 AM »


Actually, I thought that the costs were pretty in line with what I've seen - or lower.  The last Guatemala numbers that I saw were $35K - $40K+.  A quick search of India, Nepal and Ethiopia fees with various agencies is in line with what was published.

But, those quotes are for the total parent expenses beginning to end, which are a conglomeration of fees that go to many different government agencies and travel and not to pay the specific costs associated with acquiring a child as outlined by the author's illustration.  She shows many people receiving money as they pass the child down her chain.  I don't see the profit in that if ultimately the people that hand the parent the child (people who acquired the child to adopt out) only receive a small orphanage donation.  I don't know of any orphanage donations at $35K-$40K.

The fees vary widely for a number of reasons. Guatemala was foster care vs orphanage. Not to mention all those fees for DNA tests and such that just aren't done in other countries. The country itself is a real factor. If the agency sends over a doctor with medical supplies cause they are not able to get within the country from the government, that's an added expense too.

It's really comparing apples to oranges.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 10:25:44 AM »

I don't see the profit in that if ultimately the people that hand the parent the child (people who acquired the child to adopt out) only receive a small orphanage donation.  I don't know of any orphanage donations at $35K-$40K.

What seems like a small orphanage donation to us can be a huge amount of money in the sending country.  Just for kicks I looked up average annual salaries yesterday...the US came in around $31,000 and China came in around $4,200 (US dollars - the city areas had a higher salary than the rural areas but this was the average of all areas).  We are paying a $5,000 orphanage donation...that would be like someone outside the US adopting a US child and paying a donation of $37,000.  Does that seem like a large sum that would be going to the US govt...considering what $37,000 would buy in the US? 

3xw
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 10:36:57 AM »

the cost of raising could also be compared btw the two. Day care in a center is over 1k a month. They don't got home in the swi's unless it foster situation. The 13 months my son was in the swi would come to 13 k. If you consider food diapers medicine shots clothes shoes toys doc appointment and that he spent more than ten hours per day in the swi it would be easily tens of thousands of dollars. 5 k seems okay to me. Then there are paperwork effors, finding ad placement, police played part in getting my son to the swi, it goes on and on. 

Kristine
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 10:40:25 AM »

I'd never seen the actual dollar comparision between us dollars and their value in China.  Yep, 37k seems reasonable for around the clock care, diapers, food, medical attention, housing, heat, clothes and all the paperwork.

Very reasonable.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 10:46:43 AM »

I'd never seen the actual dollar comparision between us dollars and their value in China.  Yep, 37k seems reasonable for around the clock care, diapers, food, medical attention, housing, heat, clothes and all the paperwork.

Very reasonable.

I was of the opposite opinion...do you think there is any child in US foster care whose expenses for care during the first year of life would add up to $37,000?  Many of the children from China are around a year old.  Now for sure older and SN children can require more intensive care, but would $37,000 be an average figure?  That seems really high to me, especially when some costs, like heat, clothes, housing, are shared among more than one child.

At the very least, in my mind a donation of $37,000 per child would be more than enough of an incentive for some people to want to skim a little off the top.

3xw
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 10:50:08 AM »

Yes, I do think foster care costs would add up to that much. Salary for social worker, payments to the foster family, which are never as much as actually raising a child costs, all added up? Yep, I can see it hitting that, and more.

And in China, they are (at least in the case of a SWI) paying a 24 hour staff, unlike a foster family here would receive, here you are simply reimbursed for some of the costs of having a child in your home, it is not your paying job that you support yourself with.
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Emily and Sarah's Mom
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 10:54:04 AM »

Yes, I do think foster care costs would add up to that much. Salary for social worker, payments to the foster family, which are never as much as actually raising a child costs, all added up? Yep, I can see it hitting that, and more.

And in China, they are (at least in the case of a SWI) paying a 24 hour staff, unlike a foster family here would receive, here you are simply reimbursed for some of the costs of having a child in your home, it is not your paying job that you support yourself with.

Back in 2002 the monthly allowance the SWI received per abandoned child was reported to be in the range of 200 to 280 RMB.
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 10:58:31 AM »

yep, 25 a month.  Can you image how bad the care would be at 25 a month, with no adoption fees rolling in, or no charitable donations from the outside?
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2009, 11:06:22 AM »

I'd never seen the actual dollar comparision between us dollars and their value in China.  Yep, 37k seems reasonable for around the clock care, diapers, food, medical attention, housing, heat, clothes and all the paperwork.

Very reasonable.

I was of the opposite opinion...do you think there is any child in US foster care whose expenses for care during the first year of life would add up to $37,000?  Many of the children from China are around a year old.  Now for sure older and SN children can require more intensive care, but would $37,000 be an average figure?  That seems really high to me, especially when some costs, like heat, clothes, housing, are shared among more than one child.
 

3xw

Yes. More in fact if you really break it down. We are talking total costs here, not what expenses are the responsibility of one individual.

In the US foster care system a child who has been found abandoned or brought to hopsital for safe haven just after birth would be check out by the hospital $. Then DCFS $ would get involved to find a foster placement. Police $ would get involved in writing reports, finding family. That year or so in foster care the state would pay all medical the child needs $. Foster families getting a license involves classes, SW visits, references, physicals, fingerprinting. Placement of the child would require court costs $ if it was an AP or the foster family or the birth family coming forward $.

In many cases the birth family having been in crisis to use Safe Haven will likely need WIC, state insurance, etc... to care for the child if they decide to raise. They would also likely need to be supervised and take classes, etc... $ to be allowed a to parent. (I bring this up because this is relevant to the costs for deciding their future, like a child in China being both paper ready and getting adopted.)

Then there is the expenses of food clothing diapers shoes (current car seat crib stroller) toys vitamins child care if the foster family works... $

Our agency has a nursery for their domestic program with nurses 24/7 for when the child is released from the hospital and it's too early legal for decisions to be made. The average stay is a week where bio parents decide place or parent plan. (It's important decision and 72 hours is just not enough time) It cost $250 for a day in the nursery.  There are vollunteer cuddlers and donations of some supplies to the nursery besides. There are a number of SN babies so that does skew. But a child unattended for hours in a public place also would likely need special care.

Kristine
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Re: Wash Post - "The Orphan Manufacturing Chain"
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2009, 11:35:01 AM »


Actually, I thought that the costs were pretty in line with what I've seen - or lower.  The last Guatemala numbers that I saw were $35K - $40K+.  A quick search of India, Nepal and Ethiopia fees with various agencies is in line with what was published.

But, those quotes are for the total parent expenses beginning to end, which are a conglomeration of fees that go to many different government agencies and travel and not to pay the specific costs associated with acquiring a child as outlined by the author's illustration.  She shows many people receiving money as they pass the child down her chain.  I don't see the profit in that if ultimately the people that hand the parent the child (people who acquired the child to adopt out) only receive a small orphanage donation.  I don't know of any orphanage donations at $35K-$40K.

Graff's final number was 10-33K from APs.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 12:02:14 PM by eloquentangel » Logged

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