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ladeeesquire
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2013, 12:49:32 PM »

I have mixed feelings about the shutting down of the yahoo groups. I went to the Reuters article, and from my quick look at the first row of girls (if you click on the little pink figure, you see the actual "ad" that was posted in the adoption-from-distruption group). The majority of them appear to be ads placed by agencies looking for new homes for  kids. Not what the article described. And almost ALL of them describe kids who have significant issues, such as RAD. I'm torn because although it's obvious bad things can, and probably do, happen, RAD kids also are prone to lying and making things up. How much was this taken into account in these reports? How much independent confirmation was made of these horrible stories?

I don't think cutting off one avenue for people (primarily agencies) to find help and/or a new, more appropriate placement for troubled children is really going to solve anything without some major changes in the services offered. Most of these kids are international adoptions because parents are not prepared, there is no followup ( many agencies who originally placed these children have gone out of business, for instance) and there is a very poor understanding of RAD. If you have other children in the family, sometimes trying to get help for your RAD child can put the entire family at risk, because of the above story-telling and destructive behavior of RAD children. Trying to get your RAD child counseling, for instance, can destroy your family because the child then tells tails, which an inexperienced counselor might believe, report your entire family to CPS and you could end up coming under scrutiny or even having your other children removed.

Obviously, sending your problem child off to unvetted strangers is stupid. That's not ALL these groups offered, however. They threw the baby out with the bath water, and the situation for struggling parents and families hasn't been improved.

Kate


i'd rather a child be rehomed than killed....but......there definitely should be more oversight in that additional placement of that child. :( what a bunch of sad awful stories :(

yes, totally agree with both of these posts. I don't have a problem with "re-homing" if a family feels that they absolutely cannot or do not want to care for a child whether that child came to them biologically or through adoption. Children should be with families who want them and have the necessary resources (mental, physical, financial, etc) to care for them. But, it needs to be done legally and with concern for the child.
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2013, 01:35:37 PM »

The RAD issue is largely a red herring where this type of rehoming is concerned.  The cases in the Reuters article involve children rehomed after literally days or a few months-- much too short of a time to get a true RAD diagnosis.  I asked this question to the author in a FB chat today.  Here's my question:

Megan-- parents who illegally rehome often allege their children had RAD or "attachment disorder." Did any of the families you investigated have credible diagnoses, or were they using the RAD label as an excuse?

And the response:

Many of the parents I encountered who re-homed a child said the child suffered from Reactive Attachment Disorder or another type of special need. I also spoke with people who took in a child through re-homing who said the child did not have the problems that the original adoptive family claimed.

There is no doubt that families of children with RAD struggle.  But this is not a RAD issue.  That label is being thrown onto any kid who does not immediately submit to the new parent's authority.  RAD can't be diagnosed in days or even a few months home.  RAD is the convenient excuse here-- not the problem.
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2013, 01:39:39 PM »

And this is the kind of person who is taking in kids advertised on the internet:

Quote
Winslow ? lovethemcute ? was 41, balding and paunchy. He swapped pictures of naked children and would later spend time in a chat room called baby&toddlerlove, where he described himself as a "lil boylover," court documents show. There, he would graphically boast of molesting boys and explain how to keep the abuse quiet: "Just have to raise them to think its fine and not to tell anyone," he wrote in a chat with an undercover federal agent. "What is done in the family stays in the family."

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ldw4mlo
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2013, 01:57:53 PM »

This so makes the case for long term post placement requirements.

And regarding being able to rehome a child. Of course a family in over their head should be able to rehome a child.
But it should be on an official level, with an independent agency qualifying the new adoptive parents or foster parents.

Essentially these parents are terminating their rights and causing a child to need to be "readopted".

You should just not be able to take a child and drop them off somewhere else. Not a bio kid, not an adopted kid. Period.
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2013, 02:05:59 PM »

The RAD issue is largely a red herring where this type of rehoming is concerned.  The cases in the Reuters article involve children rehomed after literally days or a few months-- much too short of a time to get a true RAD diagnosis.  I asked this question to the author in a FB chat today.  Here's my question:

Megan-- parents who illegally rehome often allege their children had RAD or "attachment disorder." Did any of the families you investigated have credible diagnoses, or were they using the RAD label as an excuse?

And the response:

Many of the parents I encountered who re-homed a child said the child suffered from Reactive Attachment Disorder or another type of special need. I also spoke with people who took in a child through re-homing who said the child did not have the problems that the original adoptive family claimed.

There is no doubt that families of children with RAD struggle.  But this is not a RAD issue.  That label is being thrown onto any kid who does not immediately submit to the new parent's authority.  RAD can't be diagnosed in days or even a few months home.  RAD is the convenient excuse here-- not the problem.


Yes, yes, yes! 

I am living with one of those children. My fosterson was diagnosed with RAD but neither we or his new therapist think it's really RAD. Has he suffered trauma? Yes, from years of neglect in a poor orphanage and then from six years in an adoptive family that didn't understand or want him. But that's not RAD and not his fault. He is legally placed in our home and we hope and pray we will be able to adopt him.
I don't even want to think about what would have happened, how he would have reacted if he was just handed over to yet another family that wasn't prepared or had the tools to help him, and without any supervision. Our SW is a great support to us in this and a link between us and his adoptive family.

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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2013, 03:24:17 PM »

It's no wonder parents are confused.  Compare the actual diagnostic criteria under the DSM-IV-TR:

Quote

DSM IV - TR

A. Markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate social relatedness in most contexts, beginning before age 5 years, as evidenced by either (1) or (2):
 
(1) persistent failure to initiate or respond in a developmentally appropriate fashion to most social interactions, as manifest by excessively inhibited, hypervigilant, or highly ambivalent and contradictory responses (e.g., the child may respond to caregivers with a mixture of approach, avoidance, and resistance to comforting, or may exhibit frozen watchfulness)
 (2) diffuse attachments as manifest by indiscriminate sociability with marked inability to exhibit appropriate selective attachments (e.g., excessive familiarity with relative strangers or lack of selectivity in choice of attachment figures)
 
B. The disturbance in Criterion A is not accounted for solely by developmental delay (as in Mental Retardation) and does not meet criteria for a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.
 
C. Pathogenic care as evidenced by at least one of the following:
 
(1) persistent disregard of the child's basic emotional needs for comfort, stimulation, and affection
 (2) persistent disregard of the child's basic physical needs
 (3) repeated changes of primary caregiver that prevent formation of stable attachments (e.g., frequent changes in foster care)
 
D. There is a presumption that the care in Criterion C is responsible for the disturbed behavior in Criterion A (e.g., the disturbances in Criterion A began following the pathogenic care in Criterion C).
 
Specify type:
 
Inhibited Type: if Criterion A1 predominates in the clinical presentation
Disinhibited Type: if Criterion A2 predominates in the clinical presentation

Something to be dealt with, yes, but nothing too horrible.  Compare that to this hot mess of unverified, unscientific crap, which goes on to warn parents quite literally if they don't act their child will be Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, or Saddam Hussein.  There is absolutely NO science to back this crap up.

http://www.attachment.org/parents/reactive-attachment-disorder/

Yet it's this list, and not the real diagnostic criteria, that is passed around in adoption communities and used by unethical "attachment therapists."  No wonder people are shipping their kids off to strangers on the internet when they are fed lines of crap like this. 
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katep
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2013, 03:40:02 PM »

The RAD issue is largely a red herring where this type of rehoming is concerned.  The cases in the Reuters article involve children rehomed after literally days or a few months-- much too short of a time to get a true RAD diagnosis.  I asked this question to the author in a FB chat today. 

reading through the "ads" for the first row of girls in the Reuters article, I don't see what you see. Here's my summary of the first row of girls. Age of child and time home, if listed:

11 year old
11 year old brother and sister
11 year old, adopted at almost 6
10 month old girl, needs home (probably disrupted domestic adoption due to undiagnosed downs)
7 year old girl
13, adopted at 7
almost 12
13 year old, adopted 14 months prior
7 year old
7 year old, currently in residential treatment
13 year old
8 year old
older child, adopted 24 months prior
7 year old
10 year old, adopted 3 year 8 months prior
12 year old, adopted 5 years prior
older girl, adopted several years prior
6 year old, adopted 3 years prior
12 year old, adopted 7 years prior
10 year old
14 year old, adopted <1 year prior
7 year old
7 year old
15 year old, adopted 7 years prior
16 year old, adopted 3 years prior
7 and 10 year olds
4 year old, adopted <1 year previously, undiagnosed special needs (autistic)
3.5 year old, adopted <1 year previously, undisclosed special needs (neurologic)
12 year old, adopted 8 years prior 

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katep
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2013, 03:48:23 PM »

My guess is this is just going to be another thread on how horrible adoptive parents are and how evil the system is. Just another opportunity for us to vilify parents who would "abandon" their kids so we all feel better about ourselves.

As someone who looked into getting our middle son counseling after he said something that a bible school teacher took to mean that he was sexually molested at home, I can tell you getting "help" without destroying your family is a lot harder than it sounds.

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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2013, 03:52:25 PM »

People who ship their kids off to pedophiles they met over the Internet are horrible people. If we as a community can't say that then I don't know what we can say.
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hikinglorax
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2013, 04:36:51 PM »

My guess is this is just going to be another thread on how horrible adoptive parents are and how evil the system is. Just another opportunity for us to vilify parents who would "abandon" their kids so we all feel better about ourselves.

As someone who looked into getting our middle son counseling after he said something that a bible school teacher took to mean that he was sexually molested at home, I can tell you getting "help" without destroying your family is a lot harder than it sounds.



THIS system is horrible and I defy you to argue any other way.  Sending your child to live with someone you met over the internet who hasn't  been vetted by any agency or system using a placement that is not official or under any oversight is horrible. 

We are NOT talking about children who are re-homed using the appropriate legal channels or with agency/DCFS oversight.  And we are not talking about the legitimate difficulty in getting help for these children who are struggling in their adoptive homes. (although that is a huge failure of the system too) 

And I am not sure why you attempt to argue that this is about us feeling better about ourselves. 

In fact, unless you are one of these parents who are re-homing in THIS kind of a situation, I am not sure why you would think it has anything to do with you or your parenting.  Pointing out a fatal flaw in a system doesn't make me feel better or worse about myself- it makes me a person who wants to make things better for the next people. 
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katep
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2013, 04:57:33 PM »

We are NOT talking about children who are re-homed using the appropriate legal channels or with agency/DCFS oversight.  And we are not talking about the legitimate difficulty in getting help for these children who are struggling in their adoptive homes. (although that is a huge failure of the system too) 
Hiking,

Actually, yes we are, because the blurs the lines and combines them all together. Looking at the Reuter's article, the basis for all this, the majority of the "ads" it lists from those yahoo groups are agencies looking for families for kids, or individuals directing people to their agency. The majority of them state that a homestudy is needed. The majority of them appear to have been using "appropriate legal channels or with agency/DCFS oversight". The majority of those ads look no different from the many special needs "advocacy" groups, blogs and websites where people try to raise awareness about specific children available for adoption.

A few bad eggs and a few REALLY stupid people should not be enough to condemn universally. Or maybe it is to some people. I just think it's sad that what looked to be a good service to raise awareness and help connect families were all closed down because of a few horrific stories. Just shut down, instead of fixed, improved, valuable warnings placed or education given. Does anyone honestly think just closing all those groups is going to magically help struggling families find the "right" resources and do the "right" things? Even if there were laws that said such placements had to be approved through the court system, there would still be valid purpose for such groups, as the majority of them appeared to already be following legal channels.
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2013, 05:25:05 PM »

If a yahoo group was shut down because even one child had been offered on that site to a pedophile , then I am okay with that. If a resource needs to be created as a safe venue for parents looking to find a home for their child they can no longer parent, with safeguards in place to keep these already traumatized children from being put in an even worse situation, then I would be okay with that too.

I really want to say something about that few bad eggs comment but I am afraid I could not be civil. It just sounded like a huge trivialization of something that is horrible to the children that had to live through that situation.
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China Mom 2B
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2013, 06:00:52 PM »

Yes, this is a horrible situation and cries for longer post placement supervision. As a pre-Haugue adoptive family we were supposed to have a series of post placement meetings. In reality, our SW met with us one time when we were home 2 weeks. She never set eyes on DD again. All the other "meetings" involved an email with a request for photos.

We thought we were prepared for the adoption. we had raised 2 children. In retrospect, we really could have used some help with DD. As many of our children are, she was traumatized and suffered from some "issues" that took it's toll on the entire family. Home 5 years, things are great. I wonder what we would have done if things had not gotten better?

No excuses for the parents that "re-homed" these children. Who is supervising the post placement?
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 06:07:07 PM »

Looking at the Reuter's article, the basis for all this, the majority of the "ads" it lists from those yahoo groups are agencies looking for families for kids, or individuals directing people to their agency.

Of the first row of ads in the girl section (the ones I assumed that you used for your list about RAD)  only six out of the 26 make any reference at all to agency or organization.  And since the agency/organization name is redacted, there is no way to know whether or not those are legitimate placing agencies or not.  One or two more make reference to being homestudy ready or experiences.  The rest read pretty much like this

Quote
I am currently assisting a family, they have a 7 yr old daughter adopted from Eastern Europe. She has RAD issues, as well as sexual abuse behaviors. Another child the family adopted from the same orphanage has told them that this little girl has always been rough with other children. She needs a very special family however as she is HIV positive. Prefer a family with no other children or a family with only teenage children.

or

Quote
We are looking to rehome an African American/Caucasian little girl who was adopted at 3 years old in a private adoption. Please email us, and tell us a little bit about yourself if you are interested in hearing about our situation. Thank you so much.

And there are a lot of people who believe that the advocacy groups posting info about a child are violating the Hague (if not the letter of the law, certainly the spirit of it)  That said, I would not put that advocacy on the same level as this- it's not even close.  Advocating for children is very different- those parents must go through an agency and the proper channels.  They don't just get "dropped off" with the first family who responds.  
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 07:00:18 PM »

I was at the gym this morning, taking a break from my ab workout before moving onto legs and I checked Facebook. Another AP posted this article. I read it, started balling, and had to leave. This is one of the worst things I have ever read. It made me sick. Like these kids have not suffered enough. Like they already haven't had a bad hand dealt to them. Like they don't have a reason to lose hope in humanity and faith and love.

Is some of this sensationalized? Are the proper channels glossed over to make note of the more dramatic story? Probably. Does it change the fact that this happens and needs to be talked about and needs to be changed? Nope. I am still sick over it. Just heartbroken. 
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2013, 07:06:00 PM »

I think what katep was trying to say is that the article focused on a small minority of AP's who have behaved horribly and that people reading it may well generalize it and assume that this is a common practice among AP's.  Particularly AP's who have adopted internationally.  I'm not justifying the behavior of these "parents" in any way (and I don't think that katep was either) BUT I think that the article does give the impression that "re-homing" in this fashion is widespread among the IA community.  I think it would have been more balanced to at least note that most AP's who are having problems with their children try very hard to get them help & are committed to parenting them.  And to perhaps mention that these atrocities are not limited to the adoptive community -- many kids are "thrown away" by their bio families and end up on the streets or with predators.  Again, I'm not trying to say that what these particular people did wasn't repugnant -- of course it is -- but AP's are not the only parents who are negligent or abusive.  Is a child more likely to be thrown away or abused by an adoptive parent than a bio parent?  This kind of article makes it looks like that's the case and, whether we like it or not, when people who do not personally know adoptive families read it they will assume that this is common practice.

Given the choice, of course I wish these people had never adopted or had at least gone through legitimate channels to disrupt their adoptions.  But, I also wish that there was a sensationalistic article about it out there painting all AP's with the same brush.  This is the same thing that many people feel when members of their ethnic group are spotlighted for criminal/unethical behavior -- hating the perpetrators for both the acts themselves AND for feeding into stereotypes about the community.  

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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2013, 07:11:34 PM »

Oops, I meant to say that I wish there WASN'T a sensationalistic article!  LOL!
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2013, 07:26:46 PM »

People can try to downplay or explain away these atrocities all they want. But make no mistake-- people are watching AP reactions. People who matter.  And our reactions as APs downplaying these issues will be found wanting. 
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ldw4mlo
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2013, 07:35:05 PM »

People can try to downplay or explain away these atrocities all they want. But make no mistake-- people are watching AP reactions. People who matter.  And our reactions as APs downplaying these issues will be found wanting. 

This
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Re: Underground rehoming networks place adoptees in abusive homes
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2013, 08:41:02 PM »

I'm just as horrified as the next person -- but I don't see that I have a personal responsibility for the actions of other people.  And I don't think pointing out that these actions are not representative of the adoptive community as a whole means that I am downplaying them.

And as for these mysterious "people who matter" who are "watching?"  Why the heck should it be my responsibility to react in a way that they approve of?  What do I need to prove?  Why should I have to prove anything? Why should my reaction have to be any different than a non-adoptive parent's reactions?  When a child is beaten/tortured/raped/killed by a biological parent is it then the responsibility of all biological parents to prove that they're not like that?  No, it's generally assumed that such actions are an anomaly in the bio parent community & IMHO they are an anomaly in the AP community, as well.

Of course, this just reinforces the point that I was trying to make -- that the actions of a few people make the entire AP community look bad in the eyes of the general public.  This makes me doubly angry at those people, but it still doesn't make me feel that I bear the responsibility for their actions, or that I should condemn IA as a whole.  The agencies I, personally, have worked with were very stringent in training requirements (pre-Hague as well as post -Hague).  I, and the other APs I know would lay down our lives for our children.  There are always exceptions but that's true in non-adoptive families , as well.  Mistreatment and abandonment of children  is not JUST an AP issue.
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