Information from CCAA Meetings
From the people who attended some of the meetings, most of them made some mention of the CCAA delegates truly caring about the children and being very interested in talking to them and hearing about them. I will again say that most everyone who has ever met someone who works at the CCAA comes away realizing that they take their job of finding families for babies very, very, seriously.
Several people who asked direct questions of a CCAA delegate had their questions responded to with a very joking “that is a secretâ€. It was given with a smile and a twinkle of an eye and no one was made to feel uncomfortable. Kudos to the CCAA for learning a bit about our culture, and that it is better to not answer the question at all than to give a false answer. I know it’s frustrating to not get answers, but IMO if they aren’t going to give an answer it is so much better to be upfront about it in such a friendly way than to give a false answer.
The good news is that many people were also given answers to their questions. Does this mean that we can trust the answers? I really hope it does.
There is a lot of information here, so I’ve listed them in bullet points of what people and/or agencies were told, grouped together by topic. I’m not going to interject my own thoughts on most of these items, but I will be covering several of them on individual blog posts later on.
- It seems that about half of the agencies were told the wait will reach from “two to three years†and the other half were told from “two and a half to three yearsâ€. (To me, the important number here is that they are acknowledging the wait could reach three years.)
- One agency reports the maximum wait will be 2.5 years. (RQ note: I put this in because if I don’t I’ll get 50 emails saying , “but that’s not what MY agency saysâ€)
- Various delegates were asked by several people when they thought it might reach three years. No one reports receiving an answer other than one that basically said it’s hard to know or impossible to know.
- Based on their conversations, many agencies are reporting that we’ll be at a two year wait when we finish 2007. Several are reporting it will happen before we finish 2007. Several report that the CCAA will be referring some of the December 2005 families in December 2007. (RQ note: All of these could mean something slightly different, but they all point to the same ballpark.)
- The CCAA feels that in 2008 they will be back to something closer to 15 days per month. (RQ Clarification – I am reading this to say that 7 or 8 months from now they think they will be back to 15 day batches)
- Expedited families of Chinese Heritage can expect to wait 12 to 15 months for referral. New restrictions mean that eligibility is for second generation only.
- The CCAA is currently referring 600 to 700 babies per month. This total includes SN and NSN.
- Backlog figures: total dossiers received in 2006 (NSN and SN) were around 30,000. Total dossiers received January through May of 2007 were around 10,000. (Yes, there will be a post devoted solely to these last two bullet points.)
- Apparently, $3,000 does not go as far as it did 15 years ago when the figure was put in place. Orphanages no longer see this as the huge incentive it used to be to make babies paper ready. Also, with the Hague came more paperwork for the SWI’s as well, another reason they feel they should be getting more money. So, the orphanages want the figure higher, the Ministry of Civil Affairs has the final say in this and they say no. The CCAA understands why the MoCA says no, but they do not feel they will be able to get more paperwork coming in unless the figure is raised. (I have a lot to say about this, and I will in a later post. We’ve been talking about it in the forum and I’ve received some private correspondence backing this up from some other agencies.)
- This next one also ties in with the above, but the idea is that some of the Hague requirements have taken away the spirit of cooperation that existed before between SWI’s and the CCAA. One agency uses the word cumbersome, another speaks in terms of the SWI’s feeling they aren’t trustworthy anymore. I get the idea that they are offended by some of the new paperwork requirements.
- The new rules were put in place to try to bring the wait back down. The program will continue in the long term. If there were plans to stop the program they would not have bothered with the new rules.
- If the new rules do not create the desired equilibrium, they will put more stringent rules in place.
- Abandonments are down and domestic adoption is up, however, there are still many orphans in China who need families. The CCAA is working very hard to try to match these children with families. Please be patient as they work to find ways to make this happen.
- From a question of whether the problem is because there are no orphans or whether there are orphans but they are not being prepared for IA, the answer was that “the problem is paper ready babiesâ€. (RQ note: The question was asked in a longer and much more respectful way, so don’t think someone asked an offensive question here.)
- Of the total number of adoptions in China, 1/5 of them are IA and the remaining 4/5ths are domestic adoptions.
- The CCAA only needs to see an updated home study if one of the following major changes occurs: change in health status, birth of another child, adoption of another child, significant change to financial circumstances such as loss of employment. (RQ note: Does this mean birth and adoption are okay while waiting, they just want to know about it? That’s what it sounds like.)
- As abandonments decrease, the proportion of children with SN increases. The CCAA is working to find solutions to finding families for these children.
- For families requesting the CCAA match them with a special needs child, the anticipated waiting time is expected to be 12 to 15 months. For those who will only accept very minor special needs it could be a good bit longer since there are so many parents asking for this. For those willing to accept more severe special needs it could be a good bit shorter.
- The CCAA prefers that families start out in the program they wish to be in. They would like to discourage families from starting in the NSN program and switching to the SN program. They aren’t saying it is not allowed, they are just trying to encourage agencies to help families make up their mind before they submit their dossier so they don’t change their mind later. While this next part wasn’t actually stated, several people got the idea that this is being requested because it’s just so hard to pull a dossier out of those 30,000+ dossiers they must have warehoused somewhere in their new building.
- While it is not encouraged (see above) those already LID can switch to SN whether they meet the new May 1st rules or not. (RQ note: Apparently they started out requiring that any change meant you must meet new rules, but have changed their stance on this.)
- Under the new SN pilot program SWI’s will send children’s paperwork directly to agencies as soon as a child’s paperwork is complete, not in batches. The paperwork does not have to filter through the Provincial Authority and the CCAA, meaning children should be placed quicker.
- The CCAA is still considering an “online special needs program†that they would manage, instead of the agencies having lists. (RQ speculation: I have to wonder if they are going to let bigger agencies work directly with an orphanage and then let the smaller agencies have access to a “big list†that the CCAA would manage. If they are still considering this while they are implementing the new pilot program it’s the only thing that seems to make sense.)
- The CCAA made it clear that for children who do not pass a medical exam, another referral will only be given if the child’s physical circumstances are different from the information given in the referral packet. (RQ Note: I assume this means the CCAA will no longer issue another referral for a child exhibiting signs of RAD or autism.)
- Most domestic adoptions happen at the provincial level and the CCAA is not involved.
- The CCAA hopes that families do not give up hope. Families waiting will get a child. They hope for patience and understanding.
Remember, these items are not from a single statement. I’ve put together information from all of the meetings into one long post. Some of these items only come from one meeting, but most of them come from more than one meeting. Some of them come from information agencies have made available to their clients, but much of it also comes from conversations that individuals had with a CCAA delegate. More than one agency reported that the delegates would not give information as a group, it was only during the one-on-one conversations that they received information.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Thanks for putting this info together!
June 26th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Thanks RQ, fascinating stuff.
The one I find most interesting is the ratio of domestic adoptions to IA adoptions. I would be very curious to know how much this has changed in the last few years.
It makes me wonder if any further increases would come at the expense of IA. If it does they only need to increase 25%!!
June 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
WOW!!! THis is very interesting. I have always been told that people at The CCAA really care for the kids and that they take their jobs very seriously. According to this meeting, it appears that is the case. I am also very glad they are not planning on closing the program as the way things are going it seems like that is possible. Thanks for the update!
Christy
http://www.tomiawithlove.blogspot.com
June 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Thank you RQ! This is actually covers a lot more than I expected.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I sure hope that agencies and the CCAA read your blog. You have a way with presenting the facts in the most respectful and informative way. I think having you here helps us all understand things a little better. Thanks for putting this together.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
I appreciate your blog and info so much. Although I don’t understand why I have to come here for details about my adoption. My agency doesn’t tell me an inkling in comparison to your blog. We have a conf. call scheduled and I am very curious to hear what they choose to share with their paying clients. I’ll tell you one thing RQ, my agency should pay you for keeping me off their backs asking questions. Thanks again.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
just looked at the chart, if 2008 goes to 15 days, April LIDs will be at 27 months to referral….ties right in to the 2.5 yr theory……..
RQ you are the best!
June 26th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
That is a lot to process. Thank you RQ.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Thank you so much RQ - that was great.
I’ve been thinking recently that the people who do the matching at CCAA must have one of the best jobs in the world - after all, they get to make families. It seems that the CCAA thinks they have a pretty good job too. That makes me happy in spite of myself. :)
June 26th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Wow! A thousand thanks! This is a ton of information to mull over. Some not nearly as dire as I, personally, feared.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
This is encouraging! Thanks so much for putting this information out there for us, RQ.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
The ratio of domestic v. international adoptions was just plain shocking to me. I thought maybe it was a typo. I am glad that the stigma of adoption is changing in the Chinese culture.
~Laureen
http://www.babysites.com/sites/laureenmary
June 26th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Thanks so much RQ!!! I’m very relieved that people came back with a positive impression of CCAA.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Thanks RQ. What great informaton you provided. For me, that last bullet point was very heartfelt.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Thanks RQ :-) Very informative !
Ray.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Thanks RQ! Very informative and interesting.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
RQ,
Thank you very much. I find this to be an uplifting post and I am glad to some heartening comments from CCAA.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Should say “…glad to read…”
June 26th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Thank you for the information RQ. I had seen some of this on our agency website last night but good to see the information other agencies/people have heard too.
I find the increased fee/Hague Convention/lack of cooperation from the SWI’s most interesting. Makes me kinda angry that children sit in SWI’s because of these reasons.
I had seen mention somewhere that the CCAA really did not want to implement a quota since it didn’t work well in 2003 (hence that is why they came up with the new regulations). This makes me wonder if there really is not a quota but that the SWI’s just don’t want to cooperate.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Hmmm
600 to 700 IAs per month
IA =1/5 of total
Domestic =4/5 of total
This makes the total reported adoptions per month to be 3000-3500 with 2400-2800 being domestic.
I’d wonder how this stacks up to their other population figures.
RQ, ditto on the kudos. You are amazing.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Are we all necessarily believing the 1/5 IA, 4/5 Domestic claim? Didn’t we hear recently that the numbers were actually much closer to each other?
I know China wants us to believe that domestic adoption is taking off, but i’m taking that assertion with a grain of salt.
Great post RQ, lots of info, thanks!
June 26th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
eli: I have read numbers that would support the info RQ has on domestic vs internat’l adoption. It took me by surprise as well.
Wow–RQ, you have outdone yourself again. While the numbers may not be what people want to hear, the overall tone and sentiment of remarks seems very positive. In fact, this is one of the most positive pieces on China adoption that I have seen in a long time.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
eli
I have to agree. I was being skeptical.
I guess I was looking at another side of it. If they have 1.6 billion people, I wonder at the estimated number of abandonments per 1000. 3500 adoptions per month in a country that large seems like less than a drop in the bucket. We still are looking at vastly untold numbers of orphans who will never have a family.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I agree that it is positive feed back.
I’ve had my mind wrapped around an 18 month wait and I was ok with that–today was hard when I read 3 years. We just have to look at it like only 6 more months! That is much better than 3 years!
We have an LID 2/15/07 and waiting…
June 26th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
This was such a wonderful post! Thank you RQ for putting that all together in such an easy-to-understand format. It’s a lot of info, but I actually feel like I have a handle on it.
Reguarding the content - although three years is a hard thing to hear for people who are going to affected, I am glad they (the CCAA) are being honest about it. So many people are saying it won’t pass eighteen months …. even though it already has!!!! I tihink that they need to start accepting and realizing that this is reality.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Hmmm. So, I wonder who would do the matching under the SWI direct to agency plan?
June 26th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Jack - that will work the same way it has been working with the SN lists. The agency will match the children with the families. This is only for SN.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Thanks RQ for all of the information. I find the stats regarding IA va DA very interesting. It’s good to know those children are finding homes. It is also comforting to know that the CCAA seems to care about the chidren.
Keep up the great work! You really help the waiting process seem less difficult.
April
LID 06/16/06
June 26th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
babydreamer…
i started to reply to your comment in here with some numbercrunching on the domestic adoption vs population thing but decided it was better to start a thread in the forum…check it out if you are interested.
June 26th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
RQ,
Thank you so much for listening and talking to folks, compilingg information, and sharing it with us. I appreciate all you have done.
Julie
PAP
June 26th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
I have always believe that the people who work at the CCAA care about the children and I still do. However, if they are commenting on reaching about 15 days in 2008 it really sounds to me like they are managing to a number rather than being about paper ready babies. I would epxect that they would love to help create more families, but much of it is out of their control.
It is reassuring to hear that they don’t intend to close and I think I believe this now. If the fee hasn’t increased in 15 years, then it certainly wouldn’t be as much as an incentive today, expecially considering the increased work to submit paperwork. But why wouldn’t they just raise the fee? I still have to think that they are managing to a number.
Thanks for compiling this information. Very informative. I think I need to read it 3 or 4 more times to absorb it.
June 26th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting!
June 26th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
WOW. Trying to digest. Will ponder all this. I am so glad for this post. I need to save this somewhere.
Thank you! Thank you! This blog means the world to me.
I am so glad that they actually communicated and there were common themes!
Hann23
June 26th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Also want to add, that for me, with a late fall LID in 06, this post is a complete distraction from the rumor rollercoaster which should be starting soon.
There’s just so much here to think about. I can’t imagine what it took to put this together.
thanks again
June 26th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
So, when they talk about the domestic adoptions, could they be also talking about the families who “adopt” a child by just taking it in from a family member?
Mary
June 26th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
RQ, thanks so much. I would never receive this information from any other source.
The last bullet was so re-assuring. I really need to hear that. Thanks.
June 26th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Thank you so much for the information. I really appreciate your dedication to this community.
June 26th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Thank you very much for this information RQ. It certainly is of great benefit to all of the parents waiting for their little ones, and also for the grandparents who stand beside them during this long journey.
June 26th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
This was such a wonderful post. Thank you RQ
For devoting your time to our special community
I second YOU ARE THE BEST!!!
Ladybuginnebraska
Lid 11/18/05
June 26th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Thanks RQ!
It is marvelous that all of their comments were so positive. Even with the potential of a 3 year wait - the fact that the program will continue means that we will be blessed with a second daughter from China. I was really starting to wonder.
Thanks again - that synthesis certainly took many hours of crunching!
June 26th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Thanks for the info RQ. Painful to read, especially for someone who is an idealist like me.
The 3 year wait will be impossible for us. We will probably end up pulling out. If we were younger, we would stay in but my DH will be 55 and I will be 47 by the time we are matched.(if we are lucky) Sad because we have no children and have been through many adoption programs with no luck. We were really hoping China was the one.
Already planning on a future w/o children. We will stick in there as long as we can but if there is no change by next year, we’ll have to make the hard decision.
All of you who have children and who will adopt soon…you are truly blessed.
June 26th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Thanks again for putting this all together.
Unfortunately, if Dec is still being referred in Dec and and then they get to 15 days per month, I still have at least 1.5 years to go. Waiting until 2009 just makes me very very sad. I am happy to hear that they are continuing the program though I can’t imagine waiting that long.
Even if it isn’t good news, I prefer to be informed. Thanks again.
June 26th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
I was thinking the same thing as bailey — we have to wait until Jan 08 to get half months worth of referrals again? That’s a long time! It just feels like the carrot is being dangled again — but we have to wait 7 more months before we can get to a measly 15 days! Aghhh
June 26th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
If this info is basically correct, then I am facing a 3 year, 3 month wait. My LID is March 29, 2007. If the CCAA is going to get to 2006 at the end of this year, and then refer half a month every month, then it will take 2 years to get through the 2006 LIDs and six months to get to my LID in March 2007.
6 months left of 2005 referrals
24 months for 2006 (@ 1/2 month per month)
6 months to get through March 2007 (@1/2 month per month
Equals 36 months plus the 3 months I have already waited.
Is this right, or am I misunderstanding something? And yes, I know that this is just guessing. I’m just trying to figure out how to put everything that the CCAA said together, and it is not jibing. If their predictions are even a bit on-target with regard to a speed up in 2006, they may go over three years.
Kim
LID 3/29/07
June 26th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Yes, thank you RQ for such a great job consolidating this information and getting it out to us.
Having been told it could get to “18 months”, then “24 months” and now “3 years”, is anyone else seeing “4 years” flash before their eyes?? I am having a difficult time digesting three years, and I feel like they are just telling us about the ongoing slow down in baby steps (no pun intended).
June 26th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Thanks, RQ, for this informative summary!!
Any word on the effect of the Olympics??? Based on the time tables presented we’ll be travelling next summer.
Gratefully,
kylasfamily
June 26th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
I sure hope that “this mean[s] birth and adoption are okay while waiting” is correct as we adopted domestically while waiting. Our agency said as long as the adoptions closed 6 months apart, we’d be fine.
June 27th, 2007 at 12:31 am
WOW!
What a great post, so informative. THANK YOU!
June 27th, 2007 at 12:52 am
I am not surprised by the domestic adoption ratio, many others and I have mentioned that domestic adoptions are way up, and often people poo pooed these comments.
I was told this by missionairies who work in China, our
CWI Director, Guides and family who are from China.
We were also told the CWI has the ultimate say as to whether they want to make babies available for adoption, and even if they want to do the paperwork.
Abandonments are down, and some people still don’t believe it. I was told this by people who are involved with China’s CWI’s. Abandonments are way UP on SN’s children though.
The wait is something that most people knew about for a while now. The other information has been out there as well.
We are thinking about going on the rollercoaster ride again for another SN’s sweetie, but are aware, this time, it is going to take so much longer.
Thanks for that information RQ, you are totally amazing, and it is good to see information that others have heard through their contacts as being something said by CCAA
June 27th, 2007 at 3:11 am
Thanks for all this information RQ! I am following your site from Norway. As many others we hear little or nothing from our adoption agency, so what I know about I’ve learned from you.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Thanks RQ. I appreciate this thorough analysis. You do a great job.
I also really appreciate that the CCAA has tried to be very open about what is happenning. Its the lack of knowledge and lack of predictability that I have found to be the hardest in this process. The one thing I have always trusted in this process is that the CCAA really do care about what happens to their children. I know the matchers do a great job; I can tell this every day when I look into my 4 year olds face. I am very grateful to be my DD’s mother.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:51 am
“Of the total number of adoptions in China, 1/5 of them are IA and the remaining 4/5ths are domestic adoptions.”
Wait, wait, wait….. are they serious? Are we supposed to actually believe this??
His,
A confused Mrs. U
LID 9-12-05
referral 1-4-07
“Gotcha” Day 2-25-07 for Elizabeth
http://www.makingahouseahome.blogspot.com
June 27th, 2007 at 11:39 am
I just received my LID yesterday…so I guess I’m at the very end of what looks like a really, really, really long line. Already I can see that this site is going to be a lifeline to my daughter who, judging by our pending wait, isn’t even conceived yet!
habstevens
LID 6-26-2007
June 28th, 2007 at 12:22 am
Hi RQ,
As usual you are amazing getting all the facts together. Can you please help clarify this statement on what 2nd generation means? My husband’s parents are Chinese Heritage born in China but we are not. Thanks so much.
Expedited families of Chinese Heritage can expect to wait 12 to 15 months for referral. New restrictions mean that eligibility is for second generation only
June 28th, 2007 at 3:34 am
PEDEN,
DO NOT GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am 43 and will be 46.
My sister is 57 and dh is 62 and they adopted 6 in the last 3 years!!!!! DO NOT GIVE UP.
Go to other websites you will see lots of older parents.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Thanks, RQ, for this detailed info. Several questions & thoughts come to mind (some outlandish):
1. Any feedback from CCAA on longer in-province times for people picking up their children?
2. Did “quota” come up in conversation? Have they definitively refuted this?
3. How is CCAA accounting for children in foster care? Does the Chinese foster care system work like the US, where some children may just be raised to adulthood within the foster system? If so, are their numbers included in the 4/5ths (DA)?
4. Did anyone get a chance to demonstrate to CCAA how commonplace it is here in the US to be in therapy or on an antidepressant?
5. Did anyone address the veracity of rumored DA adoptions of girls as insurance for future brides to bio boys?
6. Did CCAA visit other countries in addition to the US?
June 28th, 2007 at 8:36 am
Also, Peden — I realize this won’t get you a Chinese baby, but my neighbors have adopted four children domestically out of the foster care system — some as newborns. In their case, the parents relinquished all rights to the agency so there was no problem with bio parents changing their minds after placement. Your home study and fingerprints would probably (check your state laws) be eligible for that process. I am not trying to talk you out of China but I know how hard it is to stare a long wait in the face when time is passing. Best of luck on your decision.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:47 am
1. Any feedback from CCAA on longer in-province times for people picking up their children?
None that I heard of.
2. Did “quota†come up in conversation? Have they definitively refuted this?
I have not heard about this question on this visit. As I’ve stated before, if the CCAA is asked whether there is a yearly quota the answer will be no. If the CCAA is asked whether they are given a limit to the number of babies allowed to pass through the IA program, they either admit to it or skirt the question. Many agencies don’t question whether there is a yearly ceiling or not, they know there is.
3. How is CCAA accounting for children in foster care? Does the Chinese foster care system work like the US, where some children may just be raised to adulthood within the foster system? If so, are their numbers included in the 4/5ths (DA)?
No idea.
4. Did anyone get a chance to demonstrate to CCAA how commonplace it is here in the US to be in therapy or on an antidepressant?
The CCAA has been told this. Many times.
5. Did anyone address the veracity of rumored DA adoptions of girls as insurance for future brides to bio boys?
I hope no one brought that up to the CCAA at one of these gatherings. I can’t imagine how it could come up in polite conversation. It is happening, I’ve heard from people within China who talk about it like it’s just the way things are. But I don’t think the CCAA has any way of addressing it. Most domestic adoptions happen at the provincial level and the CCAA is not involved.
6. Did CCAA visit other countries in addition to the US?
Yes.
June 28th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Thanks, RQ. I really appreciate the effort you put into this blog. It is high quality and a true public service.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Peden–
We’re still in the China wait (LID: March 15, 2006), but we also adopted domestically (while waiting for our China match). It took three months from start to finish, and now we have a darling baby boy who will one day have a darling sister from China.
Stay strong. It can happen.